31 min read
What This Episode is About
In this episode, Dr. John Eick shares his journey from drama teacher to superintendent, emphasizing how every role taught him that people—not programs—are what make schools thrive. He reflects on the power of authentic connection, belonging, and mentorship, describing how culture is built when educators feel seen, valued, and supported. John explores his PLN, his passion for UDL and audio learning, and his belief that teachers are already “enough,” even on their hardest days. He also recounts his experimentation with AI-powered reflective tools and how they affirmed the importance of human-to-human interaction. Ultimately, the conversation highlights the heart of education: investing in people, lifting each other up, and choosing joy and purpose in the work every day.
Meet Our Guest
John Eick has proudly served the educational landscape of Sacramento, California for almost 30 years. During this time, he has served as a Teacher, High School Principal, Director of Instructional Technology and Executive Director. As a principal his experiences included successful community and school culture building within one of the most diverse school districts in the nation. As the Director of Instructional Technology, John was recognized as an early innovator in the 1:1 movement and honored as one of only a handful of educators selected in a nation-wide search as a Google Certified Innovator. In his role as Executive Director, he led the construction of a 84,000 square foot learning center and is proud of the work he did alongside his board of directors to launch a new high school in the fall of 2021.
John has been honored as the administrator of the year in the Sacramento region and has been humbled to speak on the topic of education as a keynote presenter at conferences across the nation. In 2021, in the midst of a global pandemic, John was recognized in a local publication as a pandemic hero by his educational community as he led his K-12 organization through the disruptive changes associated with the pandemic while simultaneously completing his doctorate at California State University, Sacramento.
Key Takeaways
- Human connection is the core of great teaching and leadership; culture grows when people feel seen, valued, and supported.
- John shares how a former student once asked, “You’re not gonna quit on us too, are you?”—a moment that shaped his commitment to staying, leading, and eventually hiring that same student decades later as the drama teacher.
- Surround yourself with a strong PLN—the “iron that sharpens your iron”—and be intentional about engaging with people who challenge, inspire, and help you grow.
- The conversation reinforces that mentorship and belonging are at the heart of career longevity in education; when educators feel affirmed and connected, they’re empowered to take risks, evolve, and continue showing up for students.
Resources & Mentions
Transcript
Cate Tolnai (she/her): we're just gonna jump in. hey, hey, hey, Dr. John Eick in the house. In The Bridge.
John: This is epic. I love it. I'm on The Bridge.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): On The Bridge.
John: Like a Starship Enterprise moment right there.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my god.
John: on the bridge. Yeah, let's go. Hey, why The Bridge? What's the name of the bridge? Why is it The Bridge? Is this like the bridge of a ship or is this a bridge crossing? over a, over over a large empty
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Bridge connecting. We are connecting across the gap that exists. Yes, we are connecting. Thank you for asking that question. And thank you for interviewing me. this is John Eick. This is, gosh. John Eick is a, a happy place for me. I was trying to describe because my husband Chris this morning, he's like, Hey, hey, big day John, Eick, John Ike on The Bridge, right?
And I was like, my man.
John: Let's go.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): We've been through some stuff and we live to tell, and I would love for you to just introduce yourself and you know who, who you are. Go for it.
John: Yeah. Hey, up, Bridgenites? all, all you out there in the Bridge-O-Spher? name's John Eick. Yes, Cate called me Dr. John Eick. I think when Cate and I met, you know, I wasn't doctor yet. I didn't get my
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Definitely not.
John: like 50 years old, I was born or something.
Somebody was like, Hey, you wanna get a doctorate? I'm like. Sure, let's do that. I'm Dr. John Eick. yeah, man, I'm an educator here in the, edusphere of, Northern California, I mean Sacramento, California. you know, 30 years ago, I was bartending, across town and somebody said, Hey, don't you know something about drama? And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm a bartender and all kinds of drama. They said, no, like theater. the drama teacher over there at the high school just got in his car at lunch and drove away. never came back. I should have like been like, oh, is it a rough neighborhood? I should have asked. I walked into that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: I became a volunteer to direct the school play. Then became a like an intern teacher, then a teacher, then a. Department chair, then a vice principal, then a principal of that school. Then I began the director of technology for the whole district, and I left there and came over to Westlake Charter School, which is still in the same zip code.
the superintendent or the executive director of Westlake Charter School to kindergarten through 12th grade, little joint here. we just do bitching stuff. I just, love, I've been now an edu person in this zip code since 1997,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hello.
John: I have. I have children walk up to me every day, as if they didn't tell me yesterday.
It's always the same thing. Dr. Eick, you were my mom's principal. I'm like, totally, I remember your mom, Dr. Eick. You are my dad's teacher. Fact, the first day I walked into that edu job, as a drama, Dr. You
Cate Tolnai (she/her): huh.
John: this big old, tall kid, six foot four kid, he puts his arm around me and he looks down at me and he goes, you're not gonna quit on us too, are you? And I said. I think I'll stick around for a while and here I am almost 30 years later. Last year I hired that kid
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No.
John: to be the, to be the drama teacher
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No.
John: high
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No.
John: out.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): What?
John: Swear to God. Yeah. So like, like I, I. I'm sure you interview lots of edu nerds and I'm not gonna be your smartest, you know, part.
You know, I'm not, you're gonna be your, your, your, if you're listening to this podcast, you're like, oh, I need to hear some smart stuff. Maybe check the next episode. But you're not gonna find somebody who loves the edu gig probably
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh God.
John: than this old guy. Like I just. I dig it, man,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: into like, I'm into all of it.
I'm into the, I'm into the learnings, I'm into the pedagogy. I'm
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
John: of adult learning. I'm
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
John: how are we making this industry better? What's broken about it
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
John: always been broken about it? Somewhat. How is the system tearing the people down? It's not the people tearing the people down,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
John: I'm into all that, but at the end of the day, you know, I park my little car in the spot out front and I come in and I just dig what I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my God.
John: teachers. I think teachers are. The coolest,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Me too. Me too.
John: I love kids. yeah, so that's so, hi, I'm John Eick. Sorry, that's me. That's, that's a long story short. And then somewhere along the way, right, Cate, you and I bumped into each other
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
John: you know, conference type jam and me
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: just hanging on that Cap CUE board and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
John: other edu nerds to nerd out on technology.
I mean,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: like, Hey everybody, this is a Google Doc.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: This button right
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: share. Let me tell people, were like, whoa.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Version history.
John: time. Yeah. Right. Version history. Yeah. Dude. Could you imagine, like we were introducing, like, I remember rolling out Chromebooks as the tech director.
I'm
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
John: these new things called Chromebooks and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
John: well, this is never gonna catch on.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right,
John: have
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
John: a, a internet connected computer. That what? With
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: drive. Come on John. Is
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's a stupid, that's a dumb book.
John: That's a dumb Yeah. Chrome. Yeah. A smartphone.
It's a dumb phone. man. Yeah, it's just wild to sat in one place long enough to see like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): love that.
John: man. Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Well, and, and I think that's part of why we found each other and s and just synced so quickly. because I, I, I felt your energy, your positivity, your, he's a funny guy, you know, he likes to laugh. And, and also I think at that time there was so much chaos that like anybody who could also laugh through it, but also be wicked smart about solving it, I'm like.
We need to hang out because we got problems to solve and we also can't take it too seriously. And I remember saying, there's no such thing as an ed tech emergency. Everybody calm down. And then we had a pandemic. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That was an ed tech emergency and I was like, oops.
John: funny. That is so funny. That's
Cate Tolnai (she/her): It was
John: Gosh, what a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): so true.
John: we lived through on that. Yeah. I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I know.
John: like, I was in the middle of it all, my thing when the, when the whole world went down and thank goodness we had
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: tech leadership skills that we had and the, and the network because I could call some other nerds, be
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: doing?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
John: too. I'll do it too. Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): How are you? Yeah. How are you still, like how do you, how do you ensure that you, whatever, how do you stay connected? Like who's your, who are your people now? Like they're different. They're, I know they're different than they used to be, right? Like we're on different places. Are you just awesome now and you just talk to other superintendent people?
Or like who do you surround yourself by?
John: awesome at all. Like, I'm mostly surrounded by my 14-year-old daughter and my two sons, you know, they're, that's what I'm doing. I'm like, like if you wanna know about softball, I know, like, that's where I'm at now. My PLN, my professional learning networks all softball. No, you know, you know, it's, that's a, that's a great question.
I was actually just talking to somebody about the PLN, the personal
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: the curating of the people around
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
John: are the iron that sharpen your iron, and, and I just. There. I just, you know, I, there's just nothing more important maybe personally and professionally than saying, are you talking to?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: like, if you find yourself really frustrated with your job, check who you're talking to.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's a good point
John: So I was jamming with Cap CUE because I found out a bunch of other, you know, ed nerds who wanted to nerd out on ed tech. 'cause that, that filled my bucket, you know, that I wandered off at that point and got my doctorate, then the pandemic hit. and then, so yeah, I kind of jammed with, going to just die, but like, I'm still on boxer,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yes.
John: which is so dumb.
But like, so for those of you in the audience who are like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No,
John: so,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): we've talked about Voxer before.
John: Okay, good. Like Voxer is such a great app for, an auditory processor. 'cause that's me. I love to talk and I love to hear, talk back, you know.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: and so I get in my car every day and I hit up a couple of buddies who are like.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Nice.
John: Out there in the, in the, in the, you know, so, you know, I talked to Brent Coley and Joe Clark
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Cool.
John: these, these
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Cool.
John: are like administrators also. And I, and, and I only like to keep, you know, VAs you know, I like to keep administrators in my network. And if you, everybody has a bad day, that's the, you know, but I have also come across people who in their ethos would, like to say. That things are always bad and that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: get better. I'm like, well that's not somebody I would be talking with a lot. That's not the iron. I'm looking to sharpen my
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: really need to like be able to say, oh man, something's super broken, but I'm working with a bunch of really bitching people and we're trying to fix it and have somebody go, oh yeah, I'm trying to do that too.
And that's, so that's how I'm trying to surround myself with people like that. So I got some people in my network. I would also like real talk, you know. As I said earlier, I've kind of been in one zip code for a long time
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: and now I've been in this organization and I didn't even know what a charter school was.
And some people have, you know, a bad taste in their mouth on charters, and I think charters just like families are, they're all, there's every shape and size
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: and charter. and, I love my little. Charter family here. Like I got good people doing good stuff, really leaning in and, we're all about equity, access, inclusion.
And so we're not about like, you know, I know there's some charters that maybe aren't, aren't all about that. That's what we're about. We dig it. And so been in this little charter school for, over a decade now, and I dig people I'm leading with. So when you talk about like my PLN, my personal learning network, like. now led for a long time with other leaders and that we've grown together in ways where we're like able to, hone in on some hard conversations. Hey, I read this article. Did you read it too? Let's read it. Let's talk. Hey, I went to this, you know, I went to this conference, this webinar, I saw this thing.
I was listening to this thing. Are you, are you thinking about this too? And so I think it's so critical to have. Friends in your PLN who are thinking, I know that sounds dumb,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: but like, are you consuming, are you reading, are you, are you learning?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: you're not, you're, you're just doing what comes naturally and you'll, and, and if you're just doing what's natural, that's great, but you'll, if you don't push yourself outta your comfort zone, you're not gonna grow.
And so I like to be around people who are like, oh dude, I read this thing, or I listen to this podcast, or I. And I'm thinking about it, and I love that. So for me, jamming with people are thinking about stuff. And honestly, the the smartest person, my whole PLN is Christina Ike, she's my wife. she's the best educator I know.
And she reads everything. I'm like a big,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I love it.
John: she is so plugged. I mean, every time I, you know, every day, Hey, how, how's your day? Yeah, I was reading this, I went to this webinar, I was reading this thing. She's so smart. So I'm always like. Tell me about, structured literacy for English
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: You
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Tell me more. Hey, how did,
John: doing.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah, how did you end up, I mean, fun fact, I was looking at the, oh, I'm forgetting. What is that big, huge conference that happens in San Diego in April? Sg No, sg
John: I don't
Cate Tolnai (she/her): What? Why am I blanking on this? I'm not gonna.
John: And I was, I was thinking I was there
Cate Tolnai (she/her): You were there. You were like a featured fancy pants. GSV?
John: remember what it,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No. SGV.
John: I don't know.
really interesting sector where, venture
Cate Tolnai (she/her): SUG. S-V-A-S-U-G-S-V.
John: So the ASU is like, the university side of it,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: like the, some other, there's
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yes. That was it.
John: side of it. And so like, the two come together at this big conference and say, Hey, what are you nerds in academia nerd on? And hey, what are you, vendor capital
Cate Tolnai (she/her): paying for
John: developing to help to make money off of us learning stuff and to serve the, and so it's this really interesting cross sections.
This really interesting, know, kind of place to be. 'cause you actually end up in a room with like both sides of the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it's wild.
John: you know, when I rolled out, when, when, when we, when we all rolled out Chromebooks in 2013. I mean, I, I had recently be, become a, what do you call that? A a, what do you call it?
A certified Google,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah. Google certified teacher - GCTs.
John: Back then I was a teacher and I think it turned into Google certified
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: that was an interesting moment in time because as an educator, I applied to be part of this little network.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: They flew me out to Chicago, I went to Google, me and 50 of these nerds, nerded out on how could Google. Change education, you know, how could these tools, you know, Andrew Stillman was in my cohort. He wrote, he wrote codes like formulae and, you know, these, these, these extensions that we all use, like Andrew was in that cohort. you know, and so like, but at that time, it was the first time for me where I was like, part of the edu-Sphere and some big, like, you know, capitalist corporation was like, Hey, let's, let's see how we can. Jammed
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
John: about that experience is it wasn't like a curriculum company saying, he we're, we're McGraw Hill, take our book and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right?
John: it in the manner in which we say you should implement it. This Google certified teacher piece was like, Hey, what could you do with this?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): huh.
John: it's kind of, could you do something with this? And we're like, oh, we could do some stuff with
Cate Tolnai (she/her): We can do things.
John: fast forward to your, your question about A-S-U-G-S-V, like this space right now is kinda like. Venture capital and the corporate landscape being like, Hey, I got a thing. could, could you try it?
Is it working? Yeah, we're trying it, but give you some feedback. It's, it's not doing what you think it does.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John: interesting. So how did I get there?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Because you were, okay, let me just say, they're, they have the AI summit before the big show, and he and John Ike was, his face was plastered over social media as being Yeah, I found, that's why I found you. I sent you a screenshot and I was like, what? The, what? Tell me more.
John: I gotta get back on social media.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No, it's fine. Don't, don't, don't, don't.
John: on there. yeah, it's a, that's funny. yeah, so like real talk, you know, I, and I'm did nothing to get involved. I just fell down a flight of stairs and was
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Stop.
John: you come talk about it. happened was, so I run this, you know, little school
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: I, I, I'm always looking for ways to get, involved with smart stuff and the Silicon Schools Foundation,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
John: of the Silicon Valley, they had never partnered with a school up here in the Sacramento
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
John: and we were opening up 'cause we were always a K eight here and we're expanding to high school.
Love to tell you why, because it, it. You know, for a long time I just watched kids come through my K eight and they were, you know, B students and they'd go off to, you know, the traditional public high school sectors. And then I'd bump into the grocery store and I'm like, Hey, how you doing? You know, Jamal?
And they're like, I dropped out. I'm like, what? What, what? know? And I just watched too many kids just not make it.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: So I said, Hey, to my board, we've gotta expand our
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: into a high school and keep doing what we do the way we do it. All the way through
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: this last year we just had our first graduating
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So cool.
John: our, the look it up on the old dashboard that we had a 100%
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So crazy.
John: such a big deal. Such a big deal. A hundred percent college and career readiness accepted to. 83 different colleges
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
John: So bitching, anyway, I tell you that story to tell you this one. So we're opening up a high school and we're looking for partnerships
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
John: silicon schools helps people do what we were doing, expanding to high school.
I think they had like 60 different high schools kind of in their portfolio. That they've helped, grow. Hey, well, I know you don't really jam outside of Silicon Valley, but I'm kind of a, you know, I'm from Silicon Valley
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: from, you know, I grew
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: how about you help a, help a guy out
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Love it.
John: And these guys are great, man. We got a connection with the folks over there. know, Really wonderful people and they helped kind of partner with us. And so as they partner with us, they, they do, you know, Hey, are you interested in, in coaching, curriculum? Are you interested in,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Got
John: help, you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it.
John: shaping programs and things like that.
And we're pretty, pretty, open to always to seeing what's out there. And they opened up an AI cohort two, three years ago. Two years ago, and they're like, Hey, does anybody wanna get together and nerd out on like. What's happening in ai. And so silicon schools, 'cause they got a big reach and lots of money they brought in, you know, some big players in the AI industry and let a bunch of us edu nerds show up and like just try stuff.
And so we got exposed to Play lab and, you know,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Cool.
John: of different, lots of different like folks who were like really
Cate Tolnai (she/her): this, what, what year was this? 2020.
John: is it now? No, I mean it was probably only two, three years ago. It
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay. So, but,
John: 3,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): after, after GPT dropped.
John: after GPT drops. Everybody goes, should we get
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: together and talk about the educational impact?
So I, I think I, I got a couple of my teachers involved in the first cohort and, I actually jumped in and played along in the second cohort and I developed a, you dig it the most. This is super funky. Like, 'cause every, you gotta do a project, right? And so like, I did this, I built this, You know, I'm all about qualitative, data, and I'm all about like narrative feedback, and I'm all about like, like, Hey, the best data I'm ever gonna get is if I sit with you and go, Hey, how's your job? What, what kind of sucks about it? What's working? Be honest, like what's not working. We're only gonna get, gonna get better if we're vulnerable and like actually, and I'm all about like affirmation and validation. Like, Hey, just so you know, let me hold up a mirror. You're pretty bitching. I know you're only a second year teacher, but like, I want you to look in this mirror and recognize like you're enough.
You're killing it.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh, good, John.
John: you know,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Aw.
John: like, that's kinda my edu philosophy, right? So then, but then you're gonna be like, oh boo, now. so I was like, I wonder if I could build, 'cause we're always doing surveys,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: honestly, you hate surveys. You do not come work here. Because I'm always like, Hey, how are we?
How's the food? It's the PD today. Like, get fill out this survey. 'cause I just wanna know
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: are you experiencing this
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: called work? I was like, Hey man. I give everybody surveys all the time. If I could sit to interview a person one-on-one, I'd get better data than a survey. So I built an AI robot that would interview you about this six part PD that we built.
And it was just finishing, we're just finishing a six part pd. So I built this AI robot that, and then I gave half the staff the survey,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: how is pd? And then half the staff. They opted in. I was like, Hey, do you mind, I, I can, I need some opt-ins. I, half the staff opted in and they interacted with this nerd bot that was
Cate Tolnai (she/her): How long were they chatting with them?
John: It was like, 12 to 16 minutes.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
John: was like, and, and it asked six questions, but I, I, I coded it. I worked some coders to like. I gave it all of our documentation, our, you know, our employee handbooks and our, all of our,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my God. Oh.
John: and all of our, so it knew us and what was important to us. And then it was programmed very specifically to ask you a question and then validate and, and affirm your experience and give you positive feedback and then ask you a follow up question to the initial question. And so it was like. Hey Cate. how was, you know, the professional learning, opportunity that you just went through and Cate was like, yeah, it was okay, but you know something? Wow. Cate, you know, according to the, to the, to the charter, Weslake loves people who, are so forward thinking around inclusion of students.
You just demonstrated how, what an inclusive person you are. Good on you for being so inclusive as a follow-up, as a follow-up to this. And so then I go through,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So they walk away feeling like a goddamn superstar, right?
John: it. Yeah, it was, it was. So then, so then I, and I get, as a researcher, I get the transcript reading this transcript and I'm watching people who I love, you know, teachers here like being validated and affirmed and like their responses are getting longer.
And
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Ah.
John: this is spo. And then I'm like, ah. And it's a robot. I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): But you're the human getting the feedback, right. So you're taking Okay, go. I'm listening.
John: that, no, but that human got this awesome robot feedback and then I got the transcript and got to see that they
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: I also got the, I got the, what I got was, I think their affective filter dropped a little bit over the duration of time and that they, because they're feeling validated and so they were able to be a little more vulnerable, like, Hey, I like the pd, but you know that one part where John was talking, you just went on a little too long or whatever, you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): huh.
John: And so then my survey results were a little more engaging, than the, than the traditional survey
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No, the, oh, because you're the bot. The bot results. Okay. Yeah.
John: bot results were a little better, a little more descriptive, a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it.
John: like, robust than the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
John: survey results, and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): of course.
John: cool. So I presented that.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh.
John: At the Silicon School's AI cohort, and that's when they invited me to come down to, the G-S-U-A-S-U-A-S-U-G-S-V thing. And so a couple of my teachers got to present as well, and it was,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): cool.
John: it's, it is super bitchin. Yeah. So, well, you asked one little question
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I love it. That's the whole point.
John: later. I'm like, yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you using that now regularly?
John: No, I totally, it was so hard to build and I was like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh
John: I broke it and was like, I mean, the nugget's still in my brain
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
John: think as I said it out loud, hopefully somebody else picks
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: I was laying down and, and you know, you, I put it into the universe and we'll see if the universe does something with it.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Interesting.
John: It was fun. It was real, like the way I built it was. Super cumbersome and the people
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
John: helped build it were great. And they were like, Hey dude, I think we're onto something if you want to iterate on this. But just, know, it latched a little busy
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Life's busy. You gotta make those choices.
John: yeah, so I was just like, Hey, that was cool.
I learned a thing and maybe who knows? I, you know, you never say never. It, maybe it comes back around, maybe I build it again and, and, and use it, embedded into another thing that I'm doing. But
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: dug it 'cause I, what I guess I was trying to get at was like, human. Human on human is what makes this
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: work.
Teacher and student face-to-face, person on person. That's what this industry is at its best. And we use technology, I think, to personalize and maximize input. But it shouldn't be that re it's on the SAMR model. We're not trying to substitute out that the human on human. And so I guess at some level I was like, oh, how can I make this technology? Feel more human on human, but at the end of the day, there's just nothing better sitting down with somebody and be like, Hey, how did you experience that PD
Cate Tolnai (she/her): When you think about all of the different roles you, you held specifically in this, in this district charter, right? Yeah. 30 years. Yeah. Whatever, all those different roles, like which one do you think, best prepared you for? Supporting those teachers for being like the human mentor that you are. I mean, so much of the bridge is mentoring, right?
And like you've been an incredible mentor to me. You've helped me through so much just personally and professionally. And I think like, yeah, you, you're right, like human to human. Will Trump all, and I think back to all those different roles you played, and I wonder like, maybe that's the wrong question.
Maybe it's like, which role like filled your soul or which one made you like, I don't know, which one do you think back on? And you're like, damn, that was a good gig, or that was great. That made me so happy.
John: I, I mean, I, I, if I could go back in time and tell
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
John: of me, Hey, don't ever stop being a high school drama teacher. It was
Cate Tolnai (she/her): really?
John: gig ever. I mean, it was like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
John: I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): interesting.
John: I have young, young people. They're like 40. I, I have 40 year olds, 30 year olds that walk up to me and go, your, your, your class changed my life.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: it wasn't
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh God.
John: I mean, being a teacher, what's better than that? I mean, that is the greatest.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Good one.
John: for a loud mouth like me, like, let's be honest, where do I want to be? I wanna be talking and interacting with people, and sometimes I get stuck here behind this desk looking at
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah. Right.
John: A good spreadsheet formula. But yeah, man, teaching was it, I mean, I'll tell you what, I'm like, Hey, can I just go back and do that?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: I know it's way harder now. I watch the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah. Right.
John: Yeah, no, I was teaching like 20 years
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: for a decade and I've been admin, like, you know, working on the Death Star for 20 years.
So I, I, you know, because I, so, but as far as like that mentorship thing
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: what was the best form of like, of that,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Maybe what you felt mentored. Yeah. Go, go, go.
John: Yeah. No, I mean I think I really, I really, so I, you know, and everybody, every, every operates, right? I work really well in open space, man. If you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: me an open field, I'll run and I'll create something magical.
'cause that's kinda what I love to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
John: If you try to like tell me exactly step by step how to do something by step three, I'm like, mom. that I'm not interested, you know? And so I don't do real well in highly bureaucratic situations and highly managed situations. And so the times where I've become the the guy kind of in charge of stuff, that's when I've been the best version of myself.
And that doesn't mean that's for everybody, it's just it. Like that's when I'm able. 'cause I was like a, me directing a play like I used to. Used to direct plays what I was directing, I was moving, I was inspiring people to become a version of
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: gonna tell a story. And I'm like, that was my magic.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: then you become an educator and you become an administrator, and I'm, I'm still trying to direct a play, man. It. Chasing down test scores on state tests just does not look a lot like directing a play. It looks bureaucratic and kinda lame, so I'm like not interested in that. so the, the leadership opportunities that I've had to build culture
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: climate,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: are, those are the times when I think I've, had the most free space to run around like myself.
And so when I became the principal of Natomas High School. it was in a really tough time. If you don't know the neighborhood, it's a, I became the principal 82% free and reduced
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: while I'm the principal for like the first five years of my principalship, I had five students shot and, and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah. Oh my gosh.
John: you know, I, I, I had lots of, lots of, gang involvement and, you know,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: and it's right in 2008 when the. crashes and the world falls apart. And like our district had gone through like three or four superintendents in three or four years. And so nobody was really, had their thumb along the pulse of what was going on.
And so I was kind of free to a thing. And so I was
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: in Natoma High School at this critical time, and I was a teacher there. So when I stepped in, it wasn't like I knew anything. Well, here we are 20 years later. I still really don't know anything. But what I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So full of it.
John: no, but it's true.
Like what I learned was like if you could get into a position and get people together and have them all go, yeah, we need to, we need to clean the like wait, like we got some work to do. You could do anything.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: I had a tell was high school, I was a teacher. I stepped into that administrator role. Dude, I just collected my friends and said, Hey, we gotta turn this thing around, man. And we, and we had the greatest run. I mean, we had this run where like that school was the thriving in, in every way. Like from a metrics to, you know, attendance and test scores and all the graduation rates definitively were all going up. But the culture was like on point because people wanted to be part of what we were doing. It's the old Kid Power club, you know?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: people wanted to be part of something that was happening, so that principalship. It gave me the first opportunity to be like, oh, if you treat the school like you treated your drama classroom inclusive, you wanna be part of the cool club then.
Then be the best version of yourself. Take direction, but be part of something big. If you could treat the school like you treated your drama classroom, you can kinda grow a culture. So I learned that there. Then, when I came over here to Westlake, because I went to the district office for a couple years and became the director of Instructional
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: and found out right away that I could lead that way.
And I was doing a lot of pd, but like, I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): You, you needed to direct.
John: yeah. So I came over to Westlake Charter School and they were like, Hey, we're kind of looking like, take this little idea to become.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Amazing.
John: up school, you know, it was just a baby little school at the time, you know, we ended up building like this big
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: and all these things.
And so, yeah, I've, it's, it's culture man. It's the, the mentorship that I've offered is been around the idea that like, people matter the most,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): The most,
John: Like, like it is a super hard job. Teaching's the hardest
Cate Tolnai (she/her): oh my
John: ever
Cate Tolnai (she/her): gosh.
John: well, second hardest first thing's parenting, and it's
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: job, right? So like. So like, yeah, growing little humans in 2025 is like the hardest thing you'll ever do. And, like, so the only thing that really matters, it's not test scores and it's people,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: teachers matter. The kids matter. The admin matters. They're all people matter. So, yeah, I, I think I learned that at the first gig and brought it to this gig at some point. Man, I just love my voice, don't I just talk
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I was just gonna, I just feel like you should have your own podcast. Ah,
John: I just, hi and thanks for tuning in.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): are you still recording your podcast?
John: You know, it's funny is I, I just, I, I have, I, I haven't done a season in a season, so I'm a season behind, but I mean, I think I got seven or eight seasons, or six or so, I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's wild.
John: so, you know, I, yeah, the podcast I love be the podcast, 'cause yeah, I'll just talk as you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Totally. It's not a,
John: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): not a problem, but it's,
John: the, do you remember the story how, my podcast started? Do you remember that? I was,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I, I mean, Retell it!
John: I was at a CUE conference, I was at a CUE Conference, the Fall CUE, and I was in a session being led by who's leading the podcast
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Ryan and Brian.
John: Ryan O'Donnell, Brian Briggs, and they're up there and they're like. Hey, take
Cate Tolnai (she/her): know this story. Go, go, go. I know this story. I was with you.
John: Take out your phone. You were there. Take out your phone and record a podcast. And I'm happy to be sitting next to the smartest educator I know in the whole world. Her name's Christina Ike. I'm absolutely madly in love with her as my wife and I go. Hi, thanks for tuning in.
This is the Learn with John Eick podcast and I'm here at Fall CUE interviewing Christina Eick. How are you? Christina Eick. And you know, my wife's an introvert and she goes. And she started laying it on, and she's so smart. She just started talking. And so then I, I, I, I uploaded that recording to a Google Drive, so it was a live link. And then I took that live link and I threw it out on Twitter, check out the Learn with John,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Stop. I didn't realize that.
John: in, in the, so by the time Ryan and Brian were done, I had published my first podcast and. It was horrible. wife was brilliant, and then that was it. I was like, oh, that was so fun.
That's so easy.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
John: say words into the word box and then you put it on the Twitter sphere and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): the word fox,
John: you little hearts. And, and I like, I love the hearts. And I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right?
John: so I just started
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh gosh.
John: for years. Then I just talked about stupid stuff. I don't even know what man. I love it.
So, yeah. Ah. I've done a few series, like I, when I was in my doctorate, I interviewed
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah. I remember.
John: doctoral candidates. I did a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That was really cool.
John: like kinda walks you through a dissertation. So in, in October I'm
Cate Tolnai (she/her): cool.
John: about, are you, are you collecting data? And then by November, December, I'm like, oh, are you processing your data?
Oh, by, oh, you're defending your dissertation. That was a cool one. I did a 180 day school series where every day on my drive to work. I did a 180 day podcast in 180 days of school. That was a disaster, like, because by a day every night I'm like, am I still doing this? I, what am I gonna talk about today?
I'm like, Hey, tonight's the chili
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
John: and let's talk about school culture and night events.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): my God. How long were those episodes?
John: I mean, my drive to work is only 12 minutes, so I was like.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay. Okay. Okay.
John: to keep it under 12 minutes. Yeah. And in the beginning I'm editing 'em and fine
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: you know, you know, and by the end I'm like, post bye. Yeah. So, yeah, man, that's it. I love, I love mean the po you know, though, You know, I'm all into UDL, universal
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: I think
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: is as smart as everybody else. I just think that this damn school system loves to overvalue the, the introvert in some ways, the extrovert in other ways, and it really values the executive function. If you've got high executive function,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: going to college.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
John: low executive function.
You're maybe cut out for something other than college and it drives me
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
John: excuse my language.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No, you're fine.
John: and so I look, I love UDL 'cause like, hey, I can read, I got a doctorate, like I read me some books. But the reality is I love audio. And my brain bucket. brain does the same thing with audio that your brain does with visual.
When
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: book and one isn't smarter than the other, I can take information auditorily and process it, and it creates pictures. The same way that you create pictures in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: when you're doing the visual thing. And so people are like, well, audio books, that's not really reading. I'm like, you mean that's not eyeballing? You're right. It's not eyeballing.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's good.
John: And if I walk on my hands, am I not walking? Like what? Like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah. What is that? Yeah.
John: I just say that 'cause I just, I just love podcasts man.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): You're so good.
John: to people on thoughts.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah. And I, and I think, and I'll say this before we wrap, like, like one of the things that I have appreciated about you over the years Yes. Your ability to listen. and, and then, and you've said this a few times too, like your ability to authentically like. See the person that you're talking to and make them feel like they matter.
They belong. They, they have something to contribute like you do. You have that. And it's, the authenticity is what I've love about you. And just, it's, it's endearing, but it's also, it's safe, you know? And then when people feel safe, they can do the things that they need to do. And you are just that. You're it, you're it.
And I love catching up.
John: like I've, I feel like I've just talked this whole time and not listened, so I should be listening to you 'cause you are amazing. so yeah, thanks for, thanks
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No
John: thanks for, thanks for listening to me. They allowing me to talk. It's cool what you're doing here, man.
I'm
Cate Tolnai (she/her): thanks.
John: And the bridge. This is such a part of who you always have been for
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: I've known you, which is always trying to find a way to help others. This
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: this is your superpower.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: Hey, all you out there in the podcast, the sphere, are you feeling like school's a hard place to live and learn and be and do promise it's gonna be okay?
And that's what you're doing. And I dig it, man. Keep doing it.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah, yeah,
John: God, please telling the teachers who are in the classroom today that they're where they need to be
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
John: they are everything they need to be. And even on their worst day when they think they're not enough, they're twice as
Cate Tolnai (she/her): There's so much. Mm-hmm.
John: already, you're, you're already enough, man.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: just hold up that mirror and be like, Hey, being here is enough. Anything
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
John: Like just don't, people are so self-critical, man, and I,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I agree.
John: all the time and I'm like. God, you are 15 times better at this thing than I ever was.
What do you mean you're, you're not enough? Like, I don't know what standards people hold themselves to, but,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
John: Cate,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
John: Keep holding the mirror
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
John: up for this generation of humans and saying, Hey, keep doing what you're doing.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Do it. Yeah.
John: you.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): You're not alone. Nobody's alone. Hey my friend. thanks for your time. You gotta, you gotta go run a school. So, so, you know, there's that, and I really wanna put a link to your podcast in the show notes, so I'll get that from you later because that
John: yeah,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): would be so fun. I, I wanna go back,
John: Yeah,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I wanna go back and listen to all these, I gotta listen to your 180 days,
John: I think I had to have interviewed you at some point.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): probably, I don't know.
John: I'll have to go back and look. Yeah, I'm sure it was years and years and years. Alright, Cate, you're the best.
Thanks for having me on your show,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Until next time my friend.
John: Ooh.
