This episode with Jay Greenlinger traces his journey from teacher to district leader, emphasizing his commitment to creating a climate of care for both students and educators. He reflects on his transition from principal to director of instructional technology during the one-to-one device rollout and draws parallels to today’s challenges with AI in schools.
Jay shares how he balanced accountability pressures, funding mandates, and student wellness while leading curriculum and instruction, highlighting the importance of building sustainable systems like MTSS.
He underscores servant leadership, mentoring future leaders, and humanizing education by staying connected to teachers and communities. Ultimately, he encourages educators to both seek and create climates of care in their classrooms and schools as a pathway to empowerment and hope.
Jay Greenlinger has spent over 20 years advancing academic and wellness outcomes for students by fostering a climate of care in public schools. His work spans literacy, environmental education, data-informed decision-making, and designing learning environments that support the whole child.
With expertise in organizational leadership, curriculum development, instructional technology, staff development, and strategic planning, Jay is dedicated to building systems that empower both educators and students.
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Cate Tolnai: So Jay Greenlinger is here with us on The Bridge. I'm excited to reconnect. It's been a beat. But we have a long history and we have so many wonderful people in common and it's kind of a no-brainer to get Jay on here to share his leadership story and his, his journey over the, the last 10, 20 years. Jay, we will have your bio in the show notes, but why don't we start with just kind of what you've been doing for the last chunk of time and where you're at and kind of what you're bringing to educators that might be listening.
Jay Greenlinger: Thanks. Thanks Cate. And it has been, I, I know it's been a couple decades, which is like bothersome as you know, to say, because that, 'cause then people will think we're aged. But yeah, you know, I my path has been pretty, I think an ordinary path. I started working in summer camps, which made me think, gosh, I want to work with kids all the time.
So I became a teacher. Yeah. And you know, I was a teacher for a while and I said, gosh, you know, I think I could affect more kids if I were an administrator and I became a dean at a middle school. Which is like, could be its own podcast of people who work in middle schools.
Cate Tolnai: here. Middle school history teacher
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai: 10 years.
Jay Greenlinger: Good lord. That's like.
It's a transitional species that middle schooler.
Cate Tolnai: it. All of they're awkward. I'm like, I am so here for your awkward, let's do it together.
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, I think middle school, what I've learned is that middle school teachers and kindergarten teachers, and now maybe TK teachers as well, are like a different breed of, of professional it's, it should be its own credentialing program. I think it's different, but anyway.
Cate Tolnai: I think it's different too.
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, and so, you know, I went from a dean of students to principal.
And then we really during the next phase when I was director of technology for a school district is when I think I was most connected with you and with CUE and all the great work that, that transitional time when all of a sudden we started handing devices to every kid and teacher and said, here you go.
Cate Tolnai: yeah,
Jay Greenlinger: know, here's the internet. Right. We give everyone free reign of the internet, which is interesting. Because now all I read about is taking away free reign to the internet and, and getting kids back off the devices, so,
Cate Tolnai: a hundred percent. And like all the child, I mean, again, maybe it's because we've paused like, and we're, we're processing through the impact of some of those decisions, but it's also
Jay Greenlinger: mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai: that AI is exploding. And so there is like, it's just this really weird dichotomy of like. like retrieving control, but then also being in a space where we can't control and Okay, we digress. Keep talking. We,
Jay Greenlinger: That's fine, but.
Cate Tolnai: way, Jay, you, you, all of a sudden you were like, and then I was a principal and then I was a tech director. So like at some point, can you just tell how did that happen?
How'd you turn that page?
Jay Greenlinger: Oh, so we, so I was the principal in it was a pretty small district. I've only worked in like small to medium sized districts. This one, this one had 11 schools which is the biggest district I've worked in.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: We were, we had a, a new superintendent and she wanted to be the first in the county to go one-to-one, and she came over to my school one day and she sat in my office and she said, you know, you're really good principal, but we need to go one-to-one and I need you to lead it.
And I said, okay.
Cate Tolnai: Wow.
Jay Greenlinger: and so she, so at the time, the position was Director of Technology and I, and, and I said, I'm willing to do this, but I want you to change the title to Director of Instructional Technology, because it was really important to me that it wasn't just seen as, you know, a device and you know, a conduit to the internet, that it was seen as an instructional tool and, and that, you know, kind of paints a picture of kind of how I see things.
In, in terms of school leadership. So yeah, so it wasn't just like a one day, it was a, you know, transitional period. And for, for I think half of the, the last year I was principal for half of the year I was, I was part-time working in the technology department, laying some of the groundwork, technologically to make sure we were ready to go to one-to-one.
'cause our network
Cate Tolnai: Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: like wouldn't have handled 6,000 devices or whatever it was. We had to do a lot of of work ahead of time before we even started handing out the devices. And then from, from that point, it was like, a hundred miles an hour, here we go. Here's every devices. And then, you know, at that, at that time that was the time of the, to the age of the TOSA,
Cate Tolnai: Oh,
Jay Greenlinger: I like to call it.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah
Jay Greenlinger: and so I, I had a, a great group of TOSAs many of whom are now principals and or directors. And they, you know, they got their first dose of leadership, but then also we were real, really able to keep a instructional focus on that time. And, and yeah, so there's a lot of, commonalities with what I see right now and the age of AI, right?
So, you know, I remember teachers saying, well, they're just gonna Google the answers,
Cate Tolnai: Right,
Jay Greenlinger: you know, and now they're just gonna say, well, they're just gonna ChatGPT the answers. I don't know if there's a difference.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah,
Jay Greenlinger: if at one point they said, well, we can't give them Encyclopedia Britannica. All the answers are in there.
I, I don't know.
Cate Tolnai: right.
Jay Greenlinger: there a difference? I'm not sure.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah. No, I have thought about that long and hard too. And, and I just happened to be in a position here in Santa Barbara where I was leading the, the tech charge for our county when chat GPT dropped in 2020. Two, was it 20? 22, 23? I think it was 23. November of 23. Yeah. No, it was a day. It was a day. I feel like it was like November 16th or something crazy like that. Like Oh my gosh. Anyways, and it, yeah, I. I think, I think it's the pace that it's happening as, as a TOSA that kind of lived, like I was a previous TOSA. I became a TOSA in a small school district in northern California in 2013.
And so without, with just an, I had passed an admin credential test and so I, that was my only like, permission to lead that I had gotten. And, and I felt, I mean, like when I was in the classroom and all the tech apps were dropping, like there seemed to be more of like a, like I was still in control of what I was bringing to the kids and what I was exposing them to.
'cause they weren't getting it all on their own. Whereas now with AI, I feel like it's like it's happening to the teachers and they're not in control of it and it's happening to the leaders. And I don't know if that's something you've seen in your own more recent journey and maybe we can actually talk about that a little bit.
Like, so. The AI stuff when as a, as a school leader, that, what did that look like?
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah. And, and, and it's tough too because you know, when, when we talk about. The age, like the age of Google, right? When you go back to 2013, 2014, and, and we started giving all the students devices, we were at least still in control of their access, right? Not ev, not, not every kid had a mobile device. Many did, but not all now.
And, and pretty much every community kid, every student has their own personal device and so you, you can't control access like you used to be able to. And so I think that's what really gives teachers pause because they're, they're no longer in complete control. And, and I'm, I'm not saying this is a negative thing.
It's not, it doesn't, I don't want it to sound like I'm, you know, it's derogatory,
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: but as a teacher, you are, you are orchestrating a learning experience,
Cate Tolnai: Yep.
Jay Greenlinger: right. And so that's part of the job is you're, you're orchestrating what, what's happening in, in some fashion. Even if you bel, you know, you're a full constructivist, you're still build, you're still providing you know, a scaffold for the experience.
And so you, without knowing, without having influence or control over what the students have access to it makes it a little bit more challenging and uncertain for teachers because, and I, and I think this is. You know, my wife's a teacher. I've got four kids in high school. Like I, I see a lot from, from that point of view as well.
And I think making sure that we know the authenticity of work is important.
Cate Tolnai: Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: And I think that's what, I think that's what teachers are looking for is how do I know this is authentically from this student? And, and I think that's a challenge and it's, and it's hard because teachers don't have the training or the tools to determine that.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And we try. Right? We give them like, turn it in, you know? And, and you know, I know there's other tools that, you know, can assess whether a written piece was, was crafted by generative ai. But there's also a lot of false positives. So, it's hard And, and I think it's more complex than the, than the Google Age when we were just worried about kids Googling the answer.
Right.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And there's always been a sense of that. You know, I remember when the app came out that you could just hover over a math problem and it would do all the work for you and give you the answer and like show you the steps and you just had to copy down the steps and copy down the answer. And look, I, you know, I solved this equation which is probably, if I, that was available when I was in I algebra two or whatever, I would've done that.
I would've taken advantage of that a hundred percent was way, way better than doing all the work. Right? And so I think that's, but I think that's what gets to the, you know, teacher's hesitations
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: I want kids to learn how to use these tools, but, but not rely on them
Cate Tolnai: on him. Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: and not, and to not repl not replace learning with these tools.
And, and that's the hard part.
Cate Tolnai: So you, it sounds like your leadership journey took a pretty traditional path with the exception of like, oh, come be a tech director for the district at the tail end, but,
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah. Well that wasn't the tail end, that, that was halfway through. That was like.
Cate Tolnai: Halfway through,
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, we got, we got off topic, we started talking about ai.
Cate Tolnai: Back to that
Jay Greenlinger: so I, yeah, after being a tech director for, for a handful of years I really wanted to get back into curriculum and instruction a hundred percent. And I actually returned to the school district where I started Oak Park Unified and led the Ed Services department there for six, for six years.
And that was. I mean, that was obviously formative time for me. One, because of just the amount of responsibilities I had. I started out running Ed Services with a day and a half a week of administrative assistant. And that was, that was the department. It was me and I had, and I had, I had Linda O on Tuesdays and a half of Wednesdays.
And so, which was great because I had to learn everything about everything from preschool to AP calculus.
Cate Tolnai: Wow.
Jay Greenlinger: and so. Also, note that was a school district that was pretty, pretty progressive for a public school district where, you know, we, we were pretty healthy risk takers in that district in terms of what we, what we felt was best for kids and creating that climate of care before we worried about outcomes.
And so we made a big focus on student wellness. Physical and emotion, social, emotional, and then we, environmental education and, and educating for sustainability were top priorities in that, in, in the school district. And so we were really able to chase a lot of the things that mattered to kids and mattered to, to the community in, in a nice small neighborhood school district.
So I did that for six years and then, the, you know, Ed Services changed over that time because the advent of the LCAP occurred,
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: which was something that was something for, for all the folks who are involved in the LCAP writing. Bless you. So, you know, the age of accountability really came full bore.
And then following the pandemic and our return from the pandemic, we had ESSER, we had ELO, we had the LRBG.
Cate Tolnai: Oh
Jay Greenlinger: We had gosh, I could name about six of those plans that we had to create, you know, to show accountability for, for student learning and, and so anyway, so that be, that changed the job a little bit of Ed Services where accountability was really first and foremost,
Cate Tolnai: Is
Jay Greenlinger: Before.
Cate Tolnai: that because of the influx of money that was coming in
Jay Greenlinger: A lot of it, I mean, yeah, all those plans were tied to money. So like the ELO-P and the ELO-G came out and that was tons of money.
Cate Tolnai: yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: the learning recovery block grant was a ton of money. And then the ESSER the recovery funds were of huge. It was all, they were all tied to money.
Cate Tolnai: and people don't
Like when, right, like there's this other side of it where of course, people had to be
Jay Greenlinger: mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai: held accountable, but geez, Louise, to the point of where it just kind of strips the humanity away.
It's, that's a lot.
Jay Greenlinger: Well, it, I mean, basically every board meeting we had two a month, every board meeting I was doing like massive presentations with plans and, and budgets and.
Cate Tolnai: yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: you know, how are we gonna measure impact and all these things, which was great. 'cause I really honed my, like, data collection and data reporting skills and my budgeting skills.
The CBO and I shout out to Adam Rouch. We, we were like two peas in the pod. Our, our offices were right next to each other so that we could, I mean, ever, because everything I did cost money,
Cate Tolnai: yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And every, every dollar I spent, he had to account for. So we, you know, I think. It, it felt a lot like what it felt like when we had categoricals, where it was, you know, you had to really pay attention to where you were spending those dollars and on what, and did it meet this criteria.
But then adding the goal oriented approach that all of those plans had outcomes and goals really increased accountability and I think was, which I think was fine. Right? You give us all, you give us. You increase our district budget by 25% over the course of however many years. Like, you better hold us accountable for that 'cause I'm sure it's easy to, to waste it.
But we were, you know, we were able to spend it on things that really mattered to kids, and we built an infrastructure. For, for MTSS, for multi-tiered system of support that was able to be sustained after the funding went away.
Cate Tolnai: Mm.
Jay Greenlinger: And so that was super important because we didn't have a good structure before then.
And so we were able to use those funds to build the structure and make it something permanent and not a temporary program that would've gone away when the funding ended. So, you know, using those opportunities to create something substantial and lasting.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: what it's all about, right? Because, you know, today, today 200 kids in that school district are gonna get academic support because of the, of the program that we were able to build.
So that's, that's, you know, what it's all about, obviously.
Cate Tolnai: totally agree. In fact, I was able to work with an organization called Take Action Global, and one of the one of the big pushes that I saw is, gosh, there's all this ELO-P money and this is such a great opportunity for schools and districts to. Like, learn about this global action work, actually implement projects that are sustainable past the ELO-P money because those monies are not gonna be available forever.
And so everything you just said totally resonates. And I think is it, it's interesting to me to hear you like your, your energy shifted when you started talking about the, when you started dropping the acronyms and. It really did. I could feel it. And, and it's like you went into a head space of like operations and logistics Yeah.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: Administrator. Yeah.
Cate Tolnai: Right. And as. as a classroom teacher, there's just such a wide disconnect between, gosh, this is what I want, this is what my students want. Versus like, everything you just described, you're like, every dollar I spend has to be accounted for in the business office.
Like that is just the way this works. So it's interesting to me to also hear you say like, no, we were, we, we have been centering student wellness. We've been centering environmental education. So like, how do you stay true to those areas of impact when you're also wearing all the operational and administrative hats?
Jay Greenlinger: In that, in that role, in that district at that time it was very easy because our superintendent was, we were, we were all enacting the same vision. Our board was unanimously behind that vision. And they were the biggest champions of that vision. And so and the climate and culture of the school district that time was, was super healthy.
Where it, and it was also like a rights size district. So I've always felt very strongly that about what, what I call like a right size district, and that's a district where I can just get my car drive for a couple minutes, stop by the classroom of the person who asked the question and say, Hey, Russ, let's just talk this out.
Like, let's just figure it out. And so, because I think it's all about relationships, right? And I know that there are districts that have multiple layers, you know, where the person in charge of Ed Services isn't gonna go walk, drive over, or walk over to a school and, and talk to the, to the teacher, just 'cause there's so many layers and, and of, of responsibility in between.
So I think that's part of it too, is that there is no, no one could doubt motive. Or, you know, commitment to the students. You know, there, there our motive was what we all believe to be our vision for the best way to serve students. And if there's disagreement about how to get that, let's talk it through.
And if we end up and you don't, you still don't agree with me that's okay. We could, we could be agree, be agreeable in our disagreement and then move forward.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And then and I think that was just like the. That's kind of the ethos of the school district is that we didn't always agree. There wasn't unanimity in everything we were doing.
But we were a big, we were big on building consensus and having distributed leadership so that there's a lot of decision makers and a lot of input.
Cate Tolnai: Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: You know, I think a common refrain from those at the school site or the classroom is like, you know, the district's just making decisions without.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: You know, thinking about what it feels like at the school site. And, you know, my, my hope would be that no one ever looked back and say, oh, you know, Jay was just sitting in his office making decisions about what we're doing. You know, he came to my classroom, he talked to me, he, and, you know, he, you know, set up a meeting and we just talked it out and, and now, you know, I understand why he did what he did.
You know, I still don't like it, but I understand it. And I think that that kind of, just professionalism and care for hearing people out and for everyone being participatory is a big part of, I think, leadership. And, and I think you'll find districts that are considered to be, you know, successful or high performing or whatever the adjective matters.
You, you're gonna find that in the, the leadership style of the people who are making decisions.
Cate Tolnai: So
Jay Greenlinger: so.
Cate Tolnai: what now?
Jay Greenlinger: So, so after that after Ed services you know, I felt like the, you know, I've been following this kind of straight line path, right? Teacher, Dean, Principal, Director, you know, Ed Services. I had no desire to be a CBO like zero.
That is not, I, I don't bless those people. But I don't think I could go every day and be excited about the business office. I'm glad it's there and I'm glad there's really smart people doing all those things. And we rely on them greatly. But it wasn't, that wasn't what I wanted to do. So, you know, I said, okay, well, you know, the only aspect of the school district that I don't have much experience in is human resources.
So I took a position as a Director of Personnel and Pupil Services, so personnel being hr, and then people services, like student welfare, enrollment, discipline, all all those things. And the person who I was supposed to serve under and learn from the assistant superintendent took another role.
And so I kind of got thrown in to running these, you know, heading these two departments in personnel.
Cate Tolnai: Wow. Did you get that
Jay Greenlinger: so became
Cate Tolnai: position?
Jay Greenlinger: I, yeah, A few months later I became the Assistant Superintendent. Yeah, which was a whirlwind. It was great, you know, very exciting. But it was a whirlwind and it was like, it was like two fire hoses that I was drinking from.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And then which was it? I've always been a learner and I've always learned in the roles I've been in. But I've always had like a substantial amount of what I needed to know already, you know?
Cate Tolnai: Mm-hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: and so, you know, I'm filling in gaps. This was I was learning major, you know, aspects about labor relations and negotiations and staffing, you know, formulas and all these things that I had to learn on the fly which was very stimulating.
'Cause I enjoy learning. So for three years worked in in that role. I had a great director who took over for my, my director position. And, you know. When you hire smart people and you can hand them substantial projects or initiatives or goals and know that they are, they're, they're gonna grind it out.
They're gonna ask for help. They're going to be a leader that's like the best in the world. And, and I've been really lucky in, in all the roles I've had to have people working for me who are smart and willing to take risks and willing to try new things and willing to be a, a great teammate.
And so that's part of what, you know, part of the joy of leadership is building other leaders. And so what in my Ed Services role, the person who who worked under me took over, took over in my position, and then, the person who worked under me as my director in personnel is now an assistant superintendent, a personnel in a, in a neighboring district.
So, you know, building up leaders, recognizing leadership potential, building up leaders is a, is a huge piece of, of leadership in itself. And, and it doesn't, you don't have to be an assistant superintendent to do that. You know, that happens in the classroom. It happens on the school site every day.
Cate Tolnai: every day. How did you get good at hiring people?
Jay Greenlinger: You know, I, one, I, I feel like a skill I've had since I was a, a kid is like being able to read people and really get to, to understand people quickly and kind of see through to who people really are. And and if I, if I recognize that, you know. That kind of magic piece to someone. I want to give them opportunity and let them shine.
Let them prove themselves and, and, and then be able to say, Hey, listen, this person deserves, you know, a chance to be in this role or this person, you know, needs a promotion that look at this work that they're doing. You know, I'm, I'm happy to be someone to recognize greatness in others and promote them.
I don't need, I don't need the accolades and the limelight. I'd rather I, I feel better giving it to someone and watching someone else be, you know lauded than, than the feeling I get when, when I get recognized.
Cate Tolnai: That's not that common
Jay Greenlinger: And that's, no, and it, I, it's probably weird that like people, you know, my wife thinks it's crazy, you know, that I don't want attention.
Or, or, yeah. And, and maybe it's just like a, it's a discomfort with being. I in front, you know I guess it's like that imposter syndrome, you know, that people talk a lot about. But I do in, you know, I think leadership is all about lifting up others and, and putting them in a position where they can grow themselves and, and find ways to.
Whether it's, whether it's economic growth on, you know, for them or just, you know, influence and leadership. Seeing people grow is, is the closest thing you get in administration to like, you know, the feeling you get when one of your students get something or, or grows. That is, that it's wherever that is in the mind or, and, and in the heart.
It's, it's the same place.
Cate Tolnai: Mm-hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: and so seeking that. Is is something that I've done just as a leader in, in every position.
Cate Tolnai: Well, so when I, when I was getting my administrative credential, I was clearing my credential. I. Was clearing it as a TOSA and this was back in 2013, 2014. And I somehow skated through and was able to do that and I don't think the system knew what to do with TOSAs, so we
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai: to get through. and the whole program really wasn't the right fit for me for what I was doing. And so the program director actually took me under her wing and she was my mentor coach during that program, which was amazing. She's an amazing human and one of the books she exposed me to was servant leadership.
And, and I don't know, are you familiar with the book?
Jay Greenlinger: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai: mean, everything you just said is servant leadership and I felt like it was so formative for me as a leader at that time to go, yeah, this like, it really like I shine when you shine, like we shine. Like this is just it. And that's been part of what's carried me through all of the work I've done with teacher leadership is like I, you know, the moment you feel confident with your students, the moment you see the lights go off in their eyes. Though, that's the moment that we know we've done something right. And so I'm wondering like, obviously like you've, you've held the right positions to be in all the right places. Like everything you just said, I'm like, this is textbook someone who's ready to be the superintendent, you know, who's ready to, to rock it out.
Like, what, what is happening now?
Jay Greenlinger: So, you know, in terms of what I wanna do next and like you pointed out, you know, at some point I'd want to be a superintendent. And, you know, I think it's a, I think it's a, a great, I, I think so. Yeah. I think the job has changed. Like
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: I started in administration, it was a very different job. You know, 15 years ago it was a very different job.
It was, you were leading the schools. Now a superintendent is I, it is PR is
Cate Tolnai: right. Partnerships?
Jay Greenlinger: is HR, you know, there's a lot more about board relations and almost like protecting the board because there, there's been a politicization of local politics in general, but also local. You know, school what's going on in education.
And so I think that's changed the job a lot. There's a lot more the turnover for superintendents has increased.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: So, you know, I think the average tenure,
Cate Tolnai: Oh,
Jay Greenlinger: I
Cate Tolnai: thought it was like three years now.
Jay Greenlinger: think it's under two at this point. Yeah, it's under two.
Cate Tolnai: gosh.
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, like if you looked across the, across the nation, so
Cate Tolnai: wow.
Jay Greenlinger: the American Association of School Administrators did a, did a longevity study and yeah, I think across the country it's two years and California is not it.
Not much better if it is better. Which is a shame,
Cate Tolnai: It
Jay Greenlinger: right? Because these are the people who are supposed to be guiding and leading. And I think about the superintendents that I served under.
Cate Tolnai: Mm-hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: And then in my, in the topic of my dissertation was, was superintendent leadership and their relationship with, with principals.
So I, I spent a lot of time studying superintendents three in particular that I studied in my dissertation. And then broadly, you know, obviously, you know, leadership. And I think about what I, when I observed them and I'd watched them and, and interviewed them, this was in like 2012 ish. The, the job of a superintendent right now is 50% of it is different.
Cate Tolnai: That's incredible.
Jay Greenlinger: which yeah, that's, I mean, that's my, that's my estimate. You know, that's not a scientific number, but it, it seems like half the job is different than what it was then. And so where are we going with that? So,
Cate Tolnai: Well,
Jay Greenlinger: know,
Cate Tolnai: to
Jay Greenlinger: I think, yeah, I think,
Cate Tolnai: you? And you're like,
Jay Greenlinger: yeah. And, and. Yeah. And, and, and you know, the thing about a superintendent too is, you know, it's like it's a 24 7 365 job and that's whether or not that's right, it's what it is.
And I've got four kids in high school. You know, I'm lucky to have a lot of teenagers in my home and, you know, these are formative years for them and the, the amount of time I get to spend with them is limited, right? 'cause they're probably gonna go off and do great things in just a few years here.
And then they're busy people as well. You know, they, they play sports. They, they're in performances, they have jobs. They do all these things. And so, you know, the, the limited time I have with them I need to spend with them,
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: know, and not be, you know, calling them from the office and saying, Hey, how was your game?
Or, you know. How was the show?
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: You know? So being being present is an important thing, and that, and that's kind of where I am right now in terms of like evaluating what, what's the important stuff right now. And, you know, everyone always says family's number one. But it's, it, I think it also has to show in, in where you are and where you know, when you're present.
And so, you know, for me it's recalibrating. Where, you know, where I want to be and, and what I wanna be doing day to day. And then finding that role where I'm, you know, impacting student learning and, and student outcomes and student experiences while also being able to be impactful in my kids' lives to the degree that I'm happy with.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah, it's a, it's a balancing act and,
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai: and I totally understand the, the weariness of stepping into a position like that or even considering that when you. Are so dialed into your family and what's needed, and also what's needed of that position because you know that position and you've studied that position and you've been
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai: like it. So, so how do you. How do you, how do you, like, what are, what's your purpose now? What, what is it that you see? Like putting, putting the position aside, like knowing that the position is going to be aligned to the purpose. You need to kind of be focused, you need to be able to identify and focus on the purpose.
So what is, what is it that you see as being your purpose right now? Besides
Jay Greenlinger: So I think the, the, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for, you know, work-wise or you know, what, you know, between the hours of eight and five you know, I, I think really being in a place where I can, where you can meaningfully impact what students learn and how they learn it,
Cate Tolnai: Mm-hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: how teachers teach and what, what they have as support for, for that.
Cate Tolnai: Okay.
Jay Greenlinger: And so being, being more involved in, in the teaching and learning side you know, whether it's specific, you know, to literacy or you know, environmental education has always been a place where I found the most you know, potential impact, you know, like saving the world. Quite literally. I think, you know,
Cate Tolnai: Right.
Jay Greenlinger: We say that jokingly, you know, this lesson could, could save the world.
Right. You, you might teach, you might teach the right child at the right time, the right thing that will put them on a path to, you know, solving, solving a, a climate based problem that otherwise would, would lead to disastrous outcomes, which is a whole other set of podcasts. But nonetheless, it's true, right?
If we, if we don't, if we don't, if we don't make corrections you know, the fires we experience, you know, you're, you're. Not too far from us. You know, you experience the brush fires, they'll get more intense and the, the storms get more intense and everything gets more intense. And that's not a political stance, that's just the scientific stance.
And what, what, what, regardless, and, and I've learned this too, is that you know, the, and this goes back to like the politicization of
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: of the things we teach. Whatever you can, you can d isagree on the cause of climate change, but you can't disagree with the out, with the, the outcome, right?
And so if we can influence the outcome we need, we should. So if you think it's all natural and has nothing to do with, with human creation, then that's fine. I disagree and so does the science, but you can't disagree that more intense heat is bad for humans and for animals and for plants and, and therefore the, you know, the earth.
So,
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: know, let's, let's agree on that. We, we might, whether or not you agree that we're the cause, we have to agree that we're the solution.
Cate Tolnai: Oh, I love that. Wait, I'm writing that down.
Jay Greenlinger: Okay?
Cate Tolnai: again, whether or not
Jay Greenlinger: Whether or not you agree that we're the cause, you have to agree that we're the solution.
Cate Tolnai: Oh my god, I love that so much. Oh, it's so hopeful. It's so empowering. And I think it goes beyond. Honestly, it goes beyond environmental ed. I think it starts with environmental ed, but this sentiment, like that we are the solution.
I mean, why else are you in education? It's not the money, it's not the time
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai: It's, you know, it's, it's not the resources, it's, it's 'cause you care and you have that purpose. And honestly, I've seen so many of education. Now I'm working in higher ed and I'm working with teacher candidates. I'm actually helping them get their credential now.
And I, I have been blown away by just the farther and farther leaders get from the classroom, the more disconnected and the more, less, less aware of purpose they are. I sort of observed and. aren't. You aren't. And so what is your secret sauce? How do you stay so connected?
Jay Greenlinger: You know, whatever role it, it's been, I've had I've always tried to build relationships with whoever, you know, whoever it is, right? And so substantially it's teachers, right? And, and I don't take personally when a teacher doesn't like something that we're doing, or if a teacher disagrees with a direction we're going or if they're really frustrated with whatever it is.
Like, I, I don't, I don't take it personally. 'cause I think, you know, even if I did cause it, if I take it personally, then you know you're gonna react emotionally instead of like, okay, well like what, what, what's the solution here? You know, if, if you were me, what would you do? And and that, and that's kind of something I've always said to, to teachers when, when I was a principal or a director or assistant superintendent, okay, well if you were in my position, what, how would you solve this?
What would you do? And, and sometimes it's, it's, you know, it's a complicated problem and they say, I have no clue. Or they might say, well, I probably do what you did. I just don't like it. Right. And then it, it, it you know, I think, but humanizing a ll of this work is super important because we're in a humanistic industry, right from the kids we serve to the, obviously, you know as one of my mentors, Leslie Heilbron is famous for saying, you know, teachers are people too,
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: Meaning they have feelings or they make mistakes, or they, you know, they deserve you know, the benefit of the doubt.
And, and so I think that's part of it. And I, again, you know, I've always talked about working in right size school districts
Cate Tolnai: love that
Jay Greenlinger: that, you know, I've never worked in a district where I couldn't just drive for like six minutes and reach every school in the district.
Cate Tolnai: Right.
Jay Greenlinger: 'cause I think, I think what's hard, and, and I see this, I live with a teacher who works in a bigger district 30 something schools. It, it's, you know, it's a big district and, and there isn't that connection with the leadership and it has nothing to do with the quality of the leadership. I know all the people in the district office there, and they're all like super smart, caring people who I, who I know are great people.
Some of 'em I've worked with in the past. So it has nothing to do with like the quality of the humans, it just has to do with the size of the organization.
Cate Tolnai: and
Jay Greenlinger: how easy or not it is to communicate and for that communication to be two ways and for it to be authentic. So I think that's a big piece of for me, staying grounded is just those relationships and those conversations and those disagreements and, you know, I'll never walk away just like at home, I'll never walk away from a conversation.
You know, disagreeing, you know, in, in a disagreement. Let's settle it, let's get to the end of it. And,
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: again, agreeing to disagree is sometimes what we have to do. But humanizing the other side and, and making sure that the other side knows that I'm a human too, right? Like, I go home to my kids and I go home and, you know.
I said I gotta go home and pick up dog poop at the end of the day. Like, you know, you know, so that doesn't humanize hu you know, I'm no better than anyone else. And
Cate Tolnai: Oh my
Jay Greenlinger: I'll, you know,
Cate Tolnai: it.
Jay Greenlinger: you know, so like, and I think about, okay, go ahead.
Cate Tolnai: no, no, no, no. You think
Jay Greenlinger: Oh, I was gonna say, you know, when I was a, when I was a principal, I had let's see.
When I was a principal, my, we had two babies. Under a year. And then a year later, my wife got pregnant again and with twins. So we had, at one point we had four kids under three. And so like, I would bring that up all the time with teachers or upset parents, like, just to remind them that like, listen, at the end of the day, I'm gonna be changing like probably 12 diapers by, by the time I go to bed, so I'm not better than you.
Like. You know, don't, don't kind of bringing myself down in, in a way, not in a self-deprecating way, but just like a, Hey, I'm a person too. And I think that's really important because we, again, getting back to like the politicization of, of education and all the things we're doing, it's, it's easy to forget that everyone who works at a school or a district office or what, what have you ever, they're all people.
And they all, you know, deserve to be treated in that way.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah, well you said this earlier and it's, it's a sentiment that will probably end up being the title of this episode, which is, your commitment to creating a Climate of Care.
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai: Like c Yeah. Is that, did I say
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai: How
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai: And
Jay Greenlinger: Climate of care. Yeah.
Cate Tolnai: so for educators that might not be feeling like they're in that climate, what, what advice do you have for them to either seek it or create it or look for it? Anything?
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, so I think the hardest thing in, and I've been, I've been lucky, really lucky in that I've worked in places that you would characterize as having a climate of care. And so I've never had the sentiment. Ugh, though they just don't get it. They don't understand how hard it is.
Cate Tolnai: right.
Jay Greenlinger: I, yeah.
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: The over there at the district office, right.
Like I never had, I never felt that. And so I, I know I recognize that as a privilege that not everyone has had in their professional career. But I've worked, you know, with a lot of districts, I've worked with a lot of people through all these organizations like CUE and AXA and all these other organizations where you, where you hear about how people experience their professional lives and the, the best way to, I think, receive that climate of care is to create that climate of care.
Cate Tolnai: Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: I think every teacher, you know, seeks to create a climate of care in their classroom. I hope they do. I expect they do. Whether they're working in my school district or my kids, my own children's teacher, I, my expectation is that they are seeking to create a climate of care.
Because all these families say, here, take my child, take the most important thing care for them, teach them. Meet their needs. My expectation is that you're doing that in a climate of care. And then we also need you know, we have to extend that to our colleagues.
Cate Tolnai: Yep.
Jay Greenlinger: You know, if you're a teacher in your grade level, create, you know, create that climate of care for the three or four teachers on your grade level.
And
Cate Tolnai: Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: the, the best way to, to get it is to help create it. And you know, taking that team approach, you know, where I think it gets hard. Is for positions that are some, like a lot of positions in education are islands, right? Like the elementary school principal is an island that's, that job is an island.
Unless you have the benefit of an AP or like a full-time counselor, you're, it's hard to find that climate of care on a daily basis unless you create it. Right. And so
Cate Tolnai: Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: your office, is your school office a a place where there's a climate of care? Because when parents walk in, if they feel that it's a place of care, they're, you know, they're going to hopefully, not universally, but hopefully treat everyone with care even if they're agitated or upset with something that happened.
And so it, you know, for classroom teachers for anyone really working in education that you know, the best way to to receive that climate of care is to create it. And you can control what you can control and within your classroom. Even if you feel like you don't receive a climate of care from your administrator or the district, you know, the them, the they you can create it in your own little world.
And that's where it starts. And then, and then hopefully it spreads, it leads to other things at school where where it spreads a little bit.
Cate Tolnai: I love that. I can't think of a better way to, to wrap this episode. It's so empowering. It's so positive, it's hopeful. It's exactly what, it's exactly the warm hug that I will, I hope to give to these educators that really need it. So thank you Jay, so much for your time and just sharing your journey. I think it's, it's wonderful.
And talk about humanizing to hear this story of leadership that so often educators don't know they don't know all the steps to take and that have been taken or not taken. So thank you so much.
Jay Greenlinger: Well, thank you for the opportunity to talk and you have a great day.
Cate Tolnai: All right.