Lindy Hockenbary shares her journey as a lifelong educator turned EdTech consultant, positioning herself as “the bridge between education and technology.” She reflects on how emerging technologies—especially AI—are reshaping classrooms, and argues that AI literacy shouldn’t be “one more marble” added to teachers’ overflowing plates, but instead woven into core subjects like math, science, and social studies.
Together, Cate and Lindy explore the power of merging marbles—integrating digital citizenship, SEL, and AI into existing curriculum rather than treating them as separate initiatives. Lindy emphasizes that avoiding technology only removes educators and students from the conversation, while engaging with it—critically and openly—gives them agency in shaping its impact. The episode closes with a call to embrace the “gray,” asking educators to sit with discomfort, stay curious, and lead with relevance, humanity, and civic responsibility.
Lindy Hockenbary—aka “LindyHoc”—is the bridge between education and technology. With experience in instructional technology, professional development, and curriculum design, Lindy helps educators unpack the effects of emerging technologies—especially artificial intelligence—on curriculum and instruction.
Her journey began in a technology-equipped classroom, where she first blended instruction with innovation. Since then, she’s supported educators around the world, authored *A Teacher’s Guide to Online Learning*, and collaborated with EdTech companies to ensure their tools align with the needs of K–12 educators. In recognition of her leadership in this space, she was named a 2025 Women in AI honoree by ASU+GSV.
Lindy’s work is grounded in helping kids, which has led to a passion for making technology literacy accessible and meaningful for every classroom. Her motto is “Make EdTech 100” as her mission is to empower educators with the confidence and clarity to navigate the evolving intersection of technology and pedagogy.
đź”— Lindy on Facebook
đź”— Lindy on Instagram
đź”— Lindy on LinkedIn
💻 Lindy’s Website
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hi Lindy.
Lindy Hockenbary: Hi Cate.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Welcome to The Bridge
Lindy Hockenbary: to the Bridge girl. I'm so excited to be here. I've been pumped for this all week. It's Friday. It's a great way to end the week. Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Even though you'll
Lindy Hockenbary: Even though you'll be, we'll
Cate Tolnai (she/her): but it is, it's getting like the weather's changing, it's getting cozy here in
Lindy Hockenbary: here, new California. And you're located where I am in southwest Montana. Bozeman. So, yeah, it's the middle of November. I know this is gonna drop middle of November. I just told my husband last night, I cannot believe that we don't have snow on the ground mid-November in Montana. That's very, it's pretty unusual.
Yeah. We've had a very mild fall overall, and I'm not gonna complain. It's been very nice.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): so Lindy,
Lindy Hockenbary: so Lindy, you and I,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): back
Lindy Hockenbary: we go back
Cate Tolnai (she/her): like
Lindy Hockenbary: not like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): but
Lindy Hockenbary: eons, but I feel like where what we
Cate Tolnai (she/her): about each
Lindy Hockenbary: like learned about each other and how we film.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): time
Lindy Hockenbary: As friend
Cate Tolnai (she/her): ha has been,
Lindy Hockenbary: said
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you know, what people would do
Lindy Hockenbary: what people were doing beyond, like, I just feel like you both like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): just
Lindy Hockenbary: just
Cate Tolnai (she/her): created
Lindy Hockenbary: created something out.
Nothing. And you've been doing this a really long time.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and so
Lindy Hockenbary: And so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you for being
Lindy Hockenbary: I think for being on,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): want
Lindy Hockenbary: I want
Cate Tolnai (she/her): just
Lindy Hockenbary: to just
Cate Tolnai (she/her): to introduce yourself
Lindy Hockenbary: yourself and like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): tell the world,
Lindy Hockenbary: the world,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): tell
Lindy Hockenbary: us, tell our little world,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): little bit
Lindy Hockenbary: a little bit about you. Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): we're all connected.
Lindy Hockenbary: Yes, so my name is Lindy Hockenbary. Hockenbary is a lot, so you can think of me as the Lindy Hawk, you know, that's like the Lindy Hop.
Just do a little play on that and just shorten the Hockenbary right up. Yeah. And personally I am a Montanan, so I said I am a dog mom. I got my two guys right here. My, if you know me, I'm like all about the squishy face dog. So I've got my Boston Interior and my Frenchie right here professionally. I love the title, the Bridge because that is what I am.
I am the bridge between education and technology. So I kind of work on both sides. I work on the educator school teacher side to help them unpack the effects of emerging technology on their curriculum and their instruction. And then I also work on the tech side with ed tech companies in particular, or sometimes tech companies that have ed tech products to help them make sure that their products meet the needs of K 12 education.
And I should say, I did not mention this, but I'm a lifelong educator, spent my career in education. I started teaching middle school, high school. I taught business education and family consumer sciences, so CTE. And when I taught business, my classroom was a computer lab. So that's what got me long story short into working into the ed tech,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): It makes so
Lindy Hockenbary: everything Ed, so much sense with that background, like where you landed and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and I connected
Lindy Hockenbary: you connected during the pandemic, right?
That's, that's how you gotta know each other. I think so. I think it was, yeah. We had a co, a friend in common, a couple friends in common slash colleagues in common.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yes, yes. The
Lindy Hockenbary: yes, yes. The Rich Dixon. Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): It was
Lindy Hockenbary: Yes. Yes. It was those two. Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): two. And, and it's so funny because during the
Lindy Hockenbary: During the pandemic.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): just,
Lindy Hockenbary: when I just,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): stepping
Lindy Hockenbary: just stepping into,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and that's how our
Lindy Hockenbary: that's how our world,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and
Lindy Hockenbary: and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): think,
Lindy Hockenbary: to think when,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): were you
Lindy Hockenbary: where on your journey when 2020 hit.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): doing this?
Lindy Hockenbary: this?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): tell
Lindy Hockenbary: Yes. No.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Lindy Hockenbary: I am not due to the consulting world. I've been consulting since 2014. So in August, August of 2014 is when I started. I kept telling people I had my 10 year anniversary, and somebody finally said to me. Wouldn't that be 11 years? And I'm like, oh yeah, it's 2025. I can do basic math. So I had my 11 year anniversary in August of consulting.
I did during one year during the pandemic work for one of the ed tech companies that I had consulted with for years. I worked for them full-time. to kind of various different things, maternity leaves and stuff. And, but other than that, I've been, I've been a full-time consultant on, on, again, and on both sides, both leading lots of professional development for teachers on a tech related stuff on the instructional side, but then also working with the tech companies in various capacities.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I can see, I
Lindy Hockenbary: I can see, I can think of so many
Cate Tolnai (she/her): know
Lindy Hockenbary: educators I know who,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): could be well positioned to do some contract work. And, and I
Lindy Hockenbary: And I think
Cate Tolnai (she/her): really
Lindy Hockenbary: what I'm really intrigued to know about is one, how did she do?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it? Like how did
Lindy Hockenbary: Mm, how did you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and then what,
Lindy Hockenbary: make the move? And then what,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): what
Lindy Hockenbary: what occurred that made it something you can
Cate Tolnai (she/her): years?
Lindy Hockenbary: do for years? Because that's kind of a dream story.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): people
Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah. People would hear that and be like, how,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): she do
Lindy Hockenbary: how did she do that?
I get this question a lot, and my answer is always, it literally happened by accident. Like everything in my career has happened by accident. I did not intend to leave the classroom. I had hope plans whatsoever. my husband got into grad school. We moved, there weren't any teaching jobs. And I tell people that now amidst like the huge teacher shortage.
And they're like, what? And I'm like, well, it was during the, the recession, the great quote, I don't know what they call it, the second grade recession.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Of our
Lindy Hockenbary: and of our lifetime. Yeah. And, They, I have very specific endorsements, so, and I live in Montana. We have a million people in the entire state and we're the fourth largest state.
So typically, like I'm certified in business and family consumer sciences, there's one, maybe two of each of those teachers in a high school. And that person might stay 30 years. You're waiting for them to leave to get in. So, so that's kinda, I ended up. Doing curriculum development. We did a lot of professionalism on the curriculum.
We started integrating a lot of technology into that curriculum. Then I worked as a tech integration specialist for a regional service center, and we supported AB school districts ish around southwest Montana and yeah, so Montana is massive, fourth largest state, and we only have five regions.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Lindy Hockenbary: and the whole idea of service centers were really new at the time to Montana.
so yeah, I was region four, which is the southwest. So we had about 80 school districts in our re 80 ish in our region that I supported from an instructional technology perspective. And that is what led me into consulting. I realized the need was much more. Then Southwest Montana. And honestly, I started, I made the leap and I started very much focused on Montana and that rural educator perspective.
I come from Southeast Montana, a very, very, very, very, very small town. 400 ish people. The whole county I come from has, I don't know, like 1100, 1200 people, maybe 1500 people in the whole county. so I went to school in rural Montana. I taught in rural Montana. And I understood that you are, you are at that point, especially, and honestly still now, you are lucky to have even tech support when it comes to technology, let alone instructional technology support.
So my whole goal when I first started. Was support those rural schools and those rural teachers with instructional tech support. And it just kind of grew and has shifted and changed a lot. My, my focus and everything and what I do has shifted a lot, much more nationally, much more internationally even in the last 11 years.
But yeah, that's, that's how I got started. Honestly. It was just kind of like a calculated risk and hey, I wanna, I wanna help more people, and I just took the leap, so.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So is
Lindy Hockenbary: When
Cate Tolnai (she/her): was it that you realized
Lindy Hockenbary: it that you realized that you had this ability to bridge between the companies and the schools? Like, and, and that you were confident enough to like.
Oh yeah, good question. Honestly, it, it again just started to happen naturally because I was leading as my work as a tech integration specialist at the service center. And then when I went off and went on my own, I was leading tons of professional development trainings for teachers on. Tech related stuff, and I always say, it's so interesting.
I mean, I've been in Ed tech specifically for about 15 years now, and watching the phases. So like when I first started it was the iPad craze. Like iPads had just come out in the last couple years. Schools were buying up iPad cards. They didn't know what to do with them, so they'd bring me in to like, Hey, what do we do with these iPads?
Like, we know we should do something, but we don't know exactly what. Right. Then it was Google.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
Lindy Hockenbary: Google Apps for education, right? So it was like very Google focused. then it was like the STEM steam, then the Chromebooks. Then there was like a big immersive learning VR push there, right? So as I went through those shifts, that's when I really started working a lot more with the ed tech companies in particular.
And I saw that there was not a bridge. And I just naturally, 'cause that's what I do, started to become the person that teaches teachers things that they need to understand about the EdTech industry and EdTech products. Like even little things like whenever I'm doing my trainings, I always throw out terminology like, you need to understand what UI user I.
UI stands for user interface, and that helps you give better feedback on the products that you're using and make sure that you have a voice in the product when you can say, Hey, your UI needs help because this isn't working for me, or whatever it is, right? And then the other thing I do is I educate them about things like how product feedback cycles and how, those EdTech companies integrate product feedback.
Right? I hope I, I educate them about that and explain to them that, hey. You are not voiceless here. So if there's something that's not working for you or you don't like in a product, hit the feedback button and give it to them. Because pro products don't just make their product roadmaps out of nothing like they really do.
The good ones, especially, they really do look at that product feedback, right. So just like little things like that of bridging the teacher and understanding the other side of the bridge, the ed tech companies, and then vice versa. The ed tech companies often are. Coders, you know, that have never been in a classroom.
So they're building cool, awesome things 'cause they have that ability and they have the vision, but they don't understand the ins and outs of the classroom. And just even explaining things like in K 12 products, the devils are in the detail, like really, and like that might not seem like an important thing or important feature to you, but that could make or break a teacher's time of them spending minutes versus hours.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow. That is so, I
Lindy Hockenbary: is so, I mean, that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): a,
Lindy Hockenbary: you're like a, a secret weapon for, for some of these companies. I can totally see
Cate Tolnai (she/her): But
Lindy Hockenbary: that. But also, like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that
Lindy Hockenbary: I know
Cate Tolnai (she/her): work
Lindy Hockenbary: that you've been doing work recently,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): At least I've seen
Lindy Hockenbary: at least I've seen you post about it recently.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): working with
Lindy Hockenbary: like working with families and parents.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): do
Lindy Hockenbary: So do you feel like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that
Lindy Hockenbary: how has that work bridging
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you to
Lindy Hockenbary: prepared you to now?
Go into this space, which
Cate Tolnai (she/her): is so needed
Lindy Hockenbary: is so needed with AI only. Yes. It's funny, I've had, over the years, I've had friends tell me, Hey, you need to help me as a parent with technology. I actually have a lot of friends that come to me to be like, do I let my kid play Minecraft? Like, you know, like, is this okay? How much screen time should I give them?
And now with ai, like, do I let them use chat GPT my high school or do use chat GP help with their own, you know? So that just naturally becomes a role with me in my group of friends. And it happens to be that a lot of my friends are also teachers.
But then I imagine that I also have the perspective of people coming to me and just being like.
We also need your help. It's not just educators, it's not just teachers. It's not just schools, not just ed tech companies. Like parents need your help. So, so yeah, I dabble. It's not my focus, but I'm not gonna say no. And honestly, what parents need is very similar to what schools and educators need, especially right now when it comes to AI and unpacking the effects of it.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah. so
Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah. so I, I know you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): this
Lindy Hockenbary: referenced this idea of like.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): marbles, right. And how education
Lindy Hockenbary: education right now. And I,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): think that's such a
Lindy Hockenbary: I think that's such a powerful metaphor, to be honest. Like when we were talking, when we were connecting about like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): be talking
Lindy Hockenbary: what we would be talking about in the podcast and, and I came across that metaphor, I was like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it,
Lindy Hockenbary: yeah, it, it,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I can interpret that
Lindy Hockenbary: I can interpret that in a lot of ways. So I'm curious how you are defining that metaphor.
Yes. So what I mean by that is I always say education is like an overflowing jar of marbles because the jar has been full for a really long time, but we just keep adding more marbles, and now the marbles are overflowing. They're falling all over the floor. People are tripping over them, they're hurting themselves, they're falling over.
But what are we doing? We're not taking away marbles. We're adding, we just keep throwing more marbles on the floor. 'cause at this point, they're not going anywhere near the jar, right? So educators are just overwhelmed by, oh, now we got this initiative. Oh, now we have to teach this. Oh, we have to teach this.
We have to teach this. We keep adding things and the things that we're adding are so important in critical the majority of the time, like right now. AI literacy, media literacy, information literacy, digital citizenship, like so important and critical to our kids, to our society. But what we're not doing is taking out marbles.
Where I have started to go with it and help is like, okay, since we can't seem to take out marbles, and in fact sometimes education takes out marbles and then legislation adds the marbles right back in. Oh, good point. Yeah,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that's a really good
Lindy Hockenbary: I mean, think about it. Think about it like the few things that we've been able to take out of like standards or focuses or curriculums.
Sometimes legislation comes back around and like p plops that marble right back in. And then if you're a public school, like you receive public funding, like you're tied to that legislation. So what I have started to do more and more is be like, alright, we can't seem to take out marbles. Why don't we combine marbles?
Okay, and my message to teachers is technology is made by humans. It doesn't exist outside of curricular topics and subject matter. Humans make technology like ai, like algorithms, like social media apps because they went to school and they understand math and science and social studies and music and art and you know, all the things on and on and on and on.
So my, one of my big pushes right now, for example, is this idea that AI literacy isn't extra. It's not one more thing, one more marble you have to add in. It's core and it's core curriculum. And what I mean by that is if you boil down and understand how AI works, at the most basic level, it's math,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Lindy Hockenbary: it's pattern recognition.
In fact, I went to, so I live in Bozeman and we have the Museum of the Rockies. I had to live right behind the Museum of the Rockies. A nationally known museum. We have like amazing dinosaur exhibits. Anyway, they had a panel there this week on AI that they brought in, national people for this AI panel.
So my husband and I went over there the other night and one of the guys is, he was actually local. He's a professor at Montana State University, which is right beside the museum. In computer science, and I wrote this down so I'm like, I'm gonna repeat this so many times. He said two things. AI is a great big probability distribution and a mathematical artifact of human creation.
So this is coming from a computer science guy. So he's creating the AI models and understands it at the most basic level. And he literally said, in not so many words, what I've been saying to educators, people, AI is math.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Will you read it again?
Lindy Hockenbary: Will you read it again? Yep. so let's see. AI is a great big probability distribution and a mathematical artifact of human creation.
Yeah. So like what do you mean by that? Okay. What do you mean, Lindy? Like how do you teach AI literacy as part of math? Right? Well, what are you doing in math? What's math standards? You're analyzing patterns, probability sampling variables. Those are all foundations of how algorithms work people. So what if in math class we ask students, why does your TikTok FYP look different than mine?
My husband and I have this conversation all the time. By the way, our TikTok FYPs are so different. Because that's the algorithm in the background figuring out, like predicting what I like versus what he likes, right? So now we're taking math, we're combining two marbles. We've gotta teach AI literacy, we've gotta teach math.
We're combining them together. But what else are we doing? We're adding relevance
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Lindy Hockenbary: and real world to. That teaching, which is so lacking in so many ways, in a lot of formal education. That relevance piece of, you know, connecting it to why students should be interested, and it's not just math by the way.
There's a huge amount of science, social studies that honestly I've been able to attach a literacy to. I think about every content area that seemed to be typical of what we teach in K 12 education and like what our standards match,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So, okay. I am gonna
Lindy Hockenbary: so, okay.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): to another level.
Lindy Hockenbary: another level. So tell me if this tracks after listening. So
Cate Tolnai (she/her): about the
Lindy Hockenbary: is what I thought about the metaphor before talking to you, and now I'm Affirm,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): is,
Lindy Hockenbary: which is,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it's
Lindy Hockenbary: maybe it's less about
Cate Tolnai (she/her): the marbles as they're
Lindy Hockenbary: as they're currently shaped, but perhaps what we're needing to do is grab a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and
Lindy Hockenbary: and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): chop 'em
Lindy Hockenbary: Mm,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): because
Lindy Hockenbary: up the marbles.
Make more space in the jar.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and through
Lindy Hockenbary: Oh.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): learning and
Lindy Hockenbary: my gosh,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): because now
Lindy Hockenbary: I love it. All that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that's hiding in those
Lindy Hockenbary: in those
Cate Tolnai (she/her): marbles is, can be we if
Lindy Hockenbary: Intertwined. Yeah. Interdisciplinary learning
Cate Tolnai (she/her): And then through
Lindy Hockenbary: and science.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): are taking
Lindy Hockenbary: taking
Cate Tolnai (she/her): creating a solid
Lindy Hockenbary: solid foundation.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): more
Lindy Hockenbary: Us to put more marbles,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): them,
Lindy Hockenbary: them. Regenerate and, and I don't know. That to me is
Cate Tolnai (she/her): makes
Lindy Hockenbary: what, what makes me tick is when we.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): topics, this is what you just
Lindy Hockenbary: What you just did, you take that super complex topic like science algorithms, right?
And you start
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that
Lindy Hockenbary: getting up that marble and creating marble dust that is now gonna settle and reshape into something else, or maybe pass itself to another subject area or another project. Yep.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right?
Lindy Hockenbary: 100%. I love that. I love the idea of just break the marbles up. Then you're making, you're, you're filling up all the air space in the jar to make more room and you're intermixing everything together.
But guess what's gonna happen in order or has to happen in order for that to happen? Exactly. Standards have gotta be reevaluated and changed and prioritized. Like you, you live and die as a teacher by your standards, right? And usually the curriculum that your school gives you to teach those standards.
And you're supposed to follow that curriculum with fidelity. So those curriculums are jam packed trying to teach all of the standards. We've gotta look at those standards and prioritize, evaluate and also. Add the relevance piece so that digital citizenship should not be a separate course. It can't be, we don't have time for it in the school year in the a hundred and what is it, 180 day typical K 12 school year.
Like we don't have time for students to go take a digital citizenship course or a separate AI literacy course, right? Figure out how to embed and add relevance at the same time and add relevance at the same.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): care of our children's minds and hearts.
Lindy Hockenbary: Heart. Yes. All of that. You know, that's a huge area that I,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): personally
Lindy Hockenbary: I personally have gove into is AI literacy and social emotional learning.
Mm. And just doubling down on that, because I also have found that like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): at this
Lindy Hockenbary: teachers at this point in time need to be reminded, but they're still experts in child development still know how children,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): from
Lindy Hockenbary: aside from
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that
Lindy Hockenbary: cu,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): be
Lindy Hockenbary: that will ever be offered or not offered, like.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): This is what we do. And like, we've somehow like started to
Lindy Hockenbary: Like start the questions. Mm-hmm. And we know about children and what we believe about, like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): needs to
Lindy Hockenbary: what needs to happen and what is happening in their brains,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): with
innovation.
And
Lindy Hockenbary: innovation. And so I try and make the piece like, you know,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): what they're ready
Lindy Hockenbary: what they're ready for, so why are we having conversations around why this
Cate Tolnai (she/her): when
Lindy Hockenbary: versus this one when the reality is,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): ready for any of it, like none of it.
Lindy Hockenbary: none of it.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So
Lindy Hockenbary: So it's just interesting. Right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I'm
Lindy Hockenbary: I'm like gonna. Think
Cate Tolnai (she/her): marbles
Lindy Hockenbary: your marvel because you really struck,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and we can't
Lindy Hockenbary: and we can't keep it up at all. Yeah. Well, last night, last night, I'm scrolling, I think it was Facebook and. Ed, I think it was Ed Week. I took screenshots of it. Yes. Here we go. Ed Week posted an article where they had interviewed researchers that did a research study on cell phone use in schools and like all the bands that are happening in state level bands and how different schools are, all that stuff.
So the article is titled "Why a Good Cell Phone Policy is About More Than Just Restrictions". It was a really great article and the conclusion was you can't just totally take out the cell phone and act like it doesn't exist. Right and not teach kids healthy habits and use of that technology, which is the theme you could take that we're applying it right now to cell phones and the smartphones.
You could apply that to almost every other technology that we talk about, right? But guess what? Here, the reason I took the picture, it's a good article and it's good research, but I took the picture because of the comments.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I wanna know.
Lindy Hockenbary: One comment. What standards or other demands will be cut down so that teachers have time to teach healthy digital habits?
Comment number two. As a teacher educator, I can tell you that we can't keep adding responsibilities to teachers' plates without taking some off. It's unsustainable. So that right there shows that that's exactly the mentality that we have in schools right now.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): absolutely.
Lindy Hockenbary: And teachers are overwhelmed, they're burnt out.
They already feel like they don't have enough time to cover all the standards and things that they are, that they can, right? So what do we do? We put the cell phone in a pouch. We make 'em keep it in their locker. We act like it doesn't exist. And what that does, there's a quote by a, a person who like focuses on, kid media.
And media literacy. And it basically says that by not allowing, like, just totally taking media out of kids' lives, you're, you're taking them away from the conversation. You're pulling your voice out of it and Right. So, and what happens when we do that with technology is that then the creators of the technology have full control.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Dangerous.
Lindy Hockenbary: we're, we're talking about billion and now trillion dollar companies. Nvidia is worth $5 trillion people, 5 trillion, not just single trillion, 5 trillion. So they have like unlimited amount of resources to do whatever they want and run amuck. So if you're not voicing, be having your voice as part of the conversation.
Like, that's I think you said it. What did you say? Dangerous. Did you say dangerous? It's dangerous. It really is dangerous because they're gonna run amuck and do whatever they want. Right. It, it, it basically becomes technology built. Technology built without us and not for us is technology used on us and not by us.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's, that is like
Lindy Hockenbary: That that.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): episode.
Lindy Hockenbary: I love Black Mirror, by the way.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): really creepy.
Lindy Hockenbary: So good. And my husband will not watch it and he's like, I don't know how you watch it. It stresses me out. Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): But you're into it,
Lindy Hockenbary: It's be, you know what? It's because I am an I'm, it optimist, like an extreme optimist at heart, and so I watch it and I laugh.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh, I
Lindy Hockenbary: Because I know, I know that if we can get our act together in society, and I really do believe that it starts with education and public education in particular. If we can get our act together and we can figure out how to teach civics and citizenship and information literacy to then we are not gonna have the black mirror happen.
But unfortunately, I don't think we're on that path yet. But I feel like AI is like pushing us there and we're finally realizing like this is a technology that we can't ignore and act like, oh, we're just gonna go about and do our math worksheets and act like, you know, the world around us isn't changing fundamentally anymore.
now we have a technology that students can use to complete that math worksheet, right? So it's like forcing. Education, which tends to move very slow for many, many reasons. That's not targeting any particular person, or it is just as an institution, right? Formal education moves really slow, and it's still, don't get me wrong, it's still moving slow, but it's maybe forcing the slow machine to like veer a teeny tiny bit.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): agree. And,
Lindy Hockenbary: I agree. And I've been,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): recently been
Lindy Hockenbary: recently been
Cate Tolnai (she/her): in
Lindy Hockenbary: participating in a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): practice for
Lindy Hockenbary: practice for educator prep programs.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): at
Lindy Hockenbary: we're looking at AI literacy,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): use.
Lindy Hockenbary: AI
Cate Tolnai (she/her): And
Lindy Hockenbary: use, and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): in
Lindy Hockenbary: implementation and educator prep programs, because obviously you and I could both know, we know this, like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): what they
Lindy Hockenbary: the kids aren't getting what they need. Teachers
Cate Tolnai (she/her): need.
Lindy Hockenbary: don't get what they
Cate Tolnai (she/her): aren't getting what
Lindy Hockenbary: leaders aren't getting what they need,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): where does that
Lindy Hockenbary: so where does that start?
It
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and
Lindy Hockenbary: prep.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): leader prep.
Lindy Hockenbary: Leader prep.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it's a really
Lindy Hockenbary: it's a really interesting flip to the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): conversation
Lindy Hockenbary: conversation that I'm loving
Cate Tolnai (she/her): like I'm gonna
Lindy Hockenbary: and I feel like I'm gonna walk away.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): like
Lindy Hockenbary: More like brain babies that need to go somewhere,
but, got brain babies. I have lots of brain babies
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I'm full of 'em.
Right.
Lindy Hockenbary: of em. Right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So let me
Lindy Hockenbary: So lemme ask you this,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): last question.
Lindy Hockenbary: question
Cate Tolnai (she/her): to end with
Lindy Hockenbary: I end,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yours, I'm gonna twist a little. So
Lindy Hockenbary: so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you stepped, you
Lindy Hockenbary: stepped,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): this
Lindy Hockenbary: stepped into this role as a bridge builder.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): in
So if you could go
Lindy Hockenbary: You to go back and tell 14,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): advice
Lindy Hockenbary: goodness,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): a mo, like something,
Lindy Hockenbary: something. What was, oh my gosh, where do I start? well, for one, I had no idea what I was doing of, from like the consultant side.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it matter? Probably more.
Lindy Hockenbary: Yes, yes and no. I mean, I can't go back and change it. It is what it is, and it brought me to where I am now. oh man. You're just hitting me with the tough questions.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): like you gotta
Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it. That's okay.
Lindy Hockenbary: You know, I, I, here, here's what it is. I, I told, I told you about like the ups, the cycles and the ups and downs. We had the iPad craze and then the Google craze and then the, then the Chromebooks and then the stem steam make of learning and you know, on and on and on.
And sometimes they were happening and at the same time, you know, type of thing. And I would get so busy supporting educators on those things. 'cause that's what schools were asking for. And I would at times try to be like, oh, hey, we should also talk about this. Right? But schools were like, oh, nope, nope, nope, nope.
We just need to figure out how to use
Cate Tolnai (she/her): being digital citizenship or this being like literacy, like digital literacy stuff.
Lindy Hockenbary: I gave this example, so I have a book on that's focused on online virtual learning, but it's also just great for digital teaching in general. Okay. All right. I'm not that I'm calling out, but, but so I wrote, I ended up writing it when during the pandemic because everybody was like, help me, and I created all these resources and it just kind of turned into a book.
But a few years before that, I had been, for example, submitting sessions to conferences. I had submitted it to several conferences, and the whole idea was this idea of like, don't be the Wizard of Oz on the screen, and this whole idea of like hybrid, blended. virtual learning and using, at the time it was Nearpod using the tool Nearpod to do more like hybrid virtual learning type stuff and trying to get teachers in schools to realize like, Hey, you could use this for snow days.
You could use this potentially if, you know there's kids that are sick that can come to school, you could use this as a backup. Backup plan if like, school buildings have to shut down. So I was like saying that. And guess what? Not a single conference accepted that proposal. Wow.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow. What
Lindy Hockenbary: And then it was fast. It was probably 2016, 17, 18, somewhere around there.
Right. Fast forward a few years to 2020, March of 2020, even January of 2020, honestly, schools were already starting to shut down in certain places and they were desperate for that kind of stuff, and everybody was like, just like, Hey, help. Right? That's just. I should have pushed more and not gotten out of my busyness.
That's one example. The other example is I had been talking about AI and I had been hinting that I had been submitting conference proposals about ai. I wanna say starting about 2020 because people chat. By the way, it is November 14th, we're recording this. The three year anniversary of ChatGPT, I believe is November 30th.
Exactly, I think is the day that it came out.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): November.
Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah, it's like, it was like the last day of November, so it's easy to remember. November, I think it was right around November 30th, 2022 is when Chatt PT was released to the public and anybody for free could go log into Chatt PT. Now you don't even have to log in right, for free and use it.
So that's when like generative ai, like. Hard launched. It wasn't a soft launch. Hard launched into the world so that anybody had access to it. But guys, the GPT large language models had been being embedded into tools and enterprise level tools since, I wanna say about 2020 when I think it was GPT-3 started it, it wasn't like chat GBT, right?
The lar, the model was getting integrated into other tools. So I had, actually, I tell this story all the time. I had bought this tool called Quickr, maybe like. Six to nine months before chat GPT was released. 'cause I was like, oh, and I, I paid for it. I paid for it. And now I look back and I'm like, oh my gosh, I paid way too much money for it.
But at the time I was so excited because I was like, oh, one of my main goals is always to get more content out. And get it out faster to educators, especially with a technology like AI that's moving so incredibly fast, right? Like get it out as fast as I can. I sometimes do a decent job, sometimes I do a horrible job of getting content out, but I purchased quick write 'cause I was like, oh hey, this is really cool.
This could help me get more block posts out on my website to teachers about instructional technology, anything and everything. and so I, I had, I had seen. The beginnings of generative ai. Right. And I was trying to tell educators, Hey guys, we, we gotta pay attention to this. We can't be surprised. We were surprised by COVID.
We shouldn't have been, but we were, I mean, bill Gates had been saying for years that a global pandemic was coming and whether you wanna listen, listen to Bill Gates, but like, he's just one example of like really smart people out there that have been saying, Hey, this is coming. We need to prepare. I was doing the same thing, like, Hey, this is coming.
We need to prepare, and then guess what? Education completely blindsided. So wrapping that all around to answer your question like what would I do differently? I would push more and try to not get wrapped up in just what is here right now. Like we gotta figure out how to use Chromebooks. I still do that and that's very relevant to what the teacher needs that moment, but try to push more to have.
Education, formal education, K 12 education in general, not be blindsided by these emerging texts. It's really, it's a lot trickier right now with AI because it really is moving so fast and it, every time we get a new AI model or a new text to image generator or a new text to video creator, it's just put out into the world for everybody to have access to.
You know, so like I, I don't think people realize that anybody can go and create a cinematic quality video by writing a text prompt right now. And had, and I don't know if education has fully wrapped their brain around yes, the curricular effects and instructional effects of that, but the societal effects.
Of that and how we meet of everybody being creators or of the potential Yes, but also the good, that's the good part about it. If you know me, I, my, one of my other mottos is nothing's black or white. Everything is gray. So every technology has really good things and every technology has really bad things.
Every, like, you can look everything, right? Everything in life has good things and bad things, and there's nothing that's black and white. If you find yourself with anything in life in the black or white side of something, you're probably not in the right spot. You need to shift and find the gray in the middle, like I'm, I'm not telling.
When you start thinking that way in life, you can find, you start finding like it, it applies to almost everything in life. Yeah, yeah. You start asking questions differently, right? You start asking questions differently. You start evaluating and fact checking and thinking about things differently of, oh, I feel like I'm way over in the white.
I need to ask more questions and look into more like shift into the gray. So anyway, I apply that shift into the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Titling our podcast Shift into the gray. Okay.
Lindy Hockenbary: into the gray, but it's, it's the same way with ai, right? So when you think, okay, everybody can create a cinematic quality video right now, the good part about that is holy cow equity.
So that kid who wants to be the next Steven Spielberg, that in 10 years ago, that would've been incredibly difficult 'cause he would've had to bought. You know, really expensive video equipment that his family doesn't have the money for whatever is now able to just go and access SOA or clean or name any of the other video generators out there.
What is Google? Google's, is it video? Is Google Video? Yeah,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): banana.
Lindy Hockenbary: Banana.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): is it?
Lindy Hockenbary: Oh, okay. I don't,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): are calling, I, I don't know. I, I see. Go
Lindy Hockenbary: I dunno,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay. Maybe I'm wrong. I should checking.
Lindy Hockenbary: I don't, I don't know. I haven't heard Banana. We need to fact check that one. Google also has this crazy one by the way, that creates like immersive 3D worlds. I don't think it's been officially released, but they've like teased at it.
Anyway, moral of the story. There's a lot out there and like, and a lot of it's free, or at least you get the basics for free. So there's the good side of like the text to video stuff, the bad side, deep fakes. That's the huge one. I was listening to someone recently, it was a panel or a podcast or something, and he said that.
It's not a matter of if your school will be hit by a deep fake, it's when, so if you don't have a deep fake policy or you know, some sort of policy or something and a plan of what to do when that deep fake hits like you're already behind, you know, type of thing. So that's, that's the con side. That's the black side, if you may, of the text to video generation.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that. I do. And I,
Lindy Hockenbary: do.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): there's something about accepting
Lindy Hockenbary: Accepting the gray and not
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it.
Lindy Hockenbary: avoiding it. That's really empowering because I think especially like with the examples you're giving and just
Cate Tolnai (she/her): just the,
Lindy Hockenbary: media,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): of
Lindy Hockenbary: the onslaught of media that we're all experiencing, like we, there needs to be the criticality that I think you suggesting with acknowledging gray. And
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Especially like
Lindy Hockenbary: especially like every conversation I've had around ai, there will be someone or someone in the room,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): concerns and
Lindy Hockenbary: concern, and.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): trying to dive into like, what, what's an
Lindy Hockenbary: What, what's an appropriate activating and respectful way of acknowledging that? Like there's great, yep. There's great,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and
Lindy Hockenbary: And, you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): know
Lindy Hockenbary: know, when
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you do
Lindy Hockenbary: you know better, you do better. And we're working on knowing better. And, and I, I'm not
Cate Tolnai (she/her): much as I'm
Lindy Hockenbary: it, as much as I'm like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): know, just kind
Lindy Hockenbary: you know, just kind of like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): the gray
Lindy Hockenbary: sitting in the gray for a, and like letting that discomfort
Cate Tolnai (she/her): activate me in
Lindy Hockenbary: activate me in some way.
I dunno where, I dunno how, but I'm just sitting in it and not avoid it, you know?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): what's really
Lindy Hockenbary: Really great about
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you just said. And
Lindy Hockenbary: what you just said.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I think
Lindy Hockenbary: I think we could all benefit from that. That's one of my biggest messages to educators is you can't avoid, you can't act like it doesn't exist. You can't just block and ban. You're taking yourself and your students out of the conversation yourself, your students, even your community.
You're taking yourself out of the communication and now you have no voice
Cate Tolnai (she/her): And
Lindy Hockenbary: versus if you, and it's so if you engage with it. And you can engage in a very critical lens. That's okay. That's good, right? But now you have a voice to say, Hey, you know what? I don't like this use of AI in education. Or, Hey, this is a, this could be a really potential, really good use for AI in education.
Because there's both, and we're seeing products that have very much both ends of that spectrum of, oh, this is a really good, purposeful, powerful use of ai. In education in some way. And then the other end of it where people are going, oh, wait, no, this is not good. This is dangerous. You want to talk about anthropomorphism?
Like we don't want to, you know, you know, and there's a huge debate about that in the education world, but guess what? There's a debate because people are interacting, engaging, asking questions, thinking critically, and not just being like, Nope, I'm gonna pull the wool over my eyes and act like it doesn't exist, type of thing.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): just think you're
Lindy Hockenbary: I just
Cate Tolnai (she/her): like the full court
Lindy Hockenbary: the full class of, of
Cate Tolnai (she/her): education
Lindy Hockenbary: education support. If I, if I do
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that to
Lindy Hockenbary: say that to you, like I, what I love about
Cate Tolnai (she/her): about
Lindy Hockenbary: we talked about and what I know your work is that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): exactly where to position
Lindy Hockenbary: you know exactly
Cate Tolnai (she/her): to
Lindy Hockenbary: position
Cate Tolnai (she/her): leaders and decision makers, and you're
Lindy Hockenbary: and you're really good at also
Cate Tolnai (she/her): conversations
Lindy Hockenbary: conversations and turning them into
Cate Tolnai (she/her): experiences for their teachers.
Lindy Hockenbary: for their teachers.
So
Cate Tolnai (she/her): what I'm saying.
Lindy Hockenbary: that's what I'm saying. And.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): on the ability to like support community
Lindy Hockenbary: Support community members and, and families
Cate Tolnai (she/her): all of that.
Lindy Hockenbary: all of that. And then to bring in the lens of business, but then also the,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): mentality of the
Lindy Hockenbary: of the classroom teacher. I just think
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you have so much
Lindy Hockenbary: so much
Cate Tolnai (she/her): to offer
Lindy Hockenbary: to offer. And you're not a,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): city planner like you. That's you.
Lindy Hockenbary: well, you're way too nice. If I knew I was gonna get compliment.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I'm
Lindy Hockenbary: Coming on the Bridge podcast. Well, I am a Cate fan as well.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Well, thank you. I,
Lindy Hockenbary: Do some pretty good work yourself. So,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you, thank you. my pleasure. I
Lindy Hockenbary: my pleasure. I feel like our show notes are gonna,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): there's
Lindy Hockenbary: there's like all the article.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): like, I want the EdWeek article. I want like, information about that Montana museum. Like, I like all the things, right. But, but also just, just. I hope people
Lindy Hockenbary: I hope people follow you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): dial
Lindy Hockenbary: and like dial into who you're, your,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): your generosity, across
Lindy Hockenbary: across social media. Like I really feel like you above
Cate Tolnai (she/her): others,
Lindy Hockenbary: many others, have
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yourself as a
Lindy Hockenbary: you, yourself as a thought,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): as an
Lindy Hockenbary: as an
Cate Tolnai (she/her): educator of.
Lindy Hockenbary: educator of educators.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that is
Lindy Hockenbary: And that is so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): warms my
Lindy Hockenbary: just
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you
Lindy Hockenbary: by heart,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): think
Lindy Hockenbary: because I think
Cate Tolnai (she/her): get
Lindy Hockenbary: it's easy to get caught up in like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): this bring in
Lindy Hockenbary: oh.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): or will this bring in
Lindy Hockenbary: Money and we'll just bring in the opportunity, especially when your whole world is contract, you're so,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): generous
Lindy Hockenbary: so generous with what you give and how you offer it. So please keep,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): sustain
Lindy Hockenbary: as you keep the same, that please keep giving because there's plenty of us out there that are like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it up.
Lindy Hockenbary: gobbling it up.
Good. I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm glad. And yes, I just dropped a brand new website. I haven't even announced it like on socials or anything yet. 'cause we're still in the QA period. but. It's there, it's live, so lindy hawk.com, L-I-N-D-Y-H-O c.com and it, I'm so excited about it. It's got a much clearer ux, which stands for user experience, which is very important, which is like the whole process of like when you go to a product or a website and you can either easily find what you want or easily not find what you want.
My new website is very much an improved ux, at least. I hope that was my goal, to be able to find.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): playing
Lindy Hockenbary: I was. Oh you were? Yay. So yes, I've got like, you know, a whole resource section now that's full blog posts and events and webinars that I do. and I am working on adding lots and lots more great stuff for educators.
So,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Well, thank you for
Lindy Hockenbary: well
Cate Tolnai (she/her): time
Lindy Hockenbary: time
Cate Tolnai (she/her): time.
Lindy Hockenbary: alright. Thank you.